Release Sample

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Release Sample

Aaron Laws
How do release samples work?

For instance, say I have a .5 second attack and a 3 second loop and .5 second release. If I play the note for four seconds, I will be .5 seconds into the second iteration of the loop. When I release the key, does the audio driver skip ahead to the release sound immediately? What kind of effort is made to avoid the blip that might be caused by a mis-alignment of phase?

I can think of two possible strategies off the top of my head:
1.) Quickly fade out the loop and fade in the release, and
2.) Wait until the loop signal becomes compatible with the beginning of the release signal. For instance, if the release signal begins like a sine wave: ascending from 0, the software would wait for the loop signal to begin to cross 0 ascending.

I assume different software handles things differently, so I'm interested in hearing how this is accomplished, and whether this is specified in SFZ, or if that is up to the particular SFZ implementation.

In Christ,
Aaron Laws

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Re: Release Sample

John Reimer
Administrator
Aaron Laws wrote
How do release samples work?
Aaron,

Your post identifies a real problem. In a 2014 blog on his website, Nick Appleton gives his opinion that the way GO handles this problem is “not particularly good”. I do not know if GO has improved matters since that was written. Nick has said to me in a conversation that he has no idea how Hauptwerk handles it (or indeed whether it does - my comment). Colin Pykett also draws our attention to the problem in an article on his website.

I believe that the standard way to “join” the release to the looped sound is to use a crossfade at the moment the note is released. But this does not solve the phase problem, as you rightly observe.

It will indeed be interesting to learn how SFZ handles it.

(This situation is one of my reasons for preferring the sf2 method of synthesizing the release, and allowing us to specify its duration in one of the parameters. The problem then does not exist. But for some hearers, that is not a satisfactory solution).

John Reimer
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Re: Release Sample

jbeach2646
In reply to this post by Aaron Laws
Aaron,  I used to know how to configure release samples in the soundfont editor.   There was a way of placing both the start wave file with attack and looped steady-state which played
until key release, at which time the release transient wave file would play, I think, triggered by the note-off, a kind of “inverse” setting.  I would have to hear the difference between real
release samples and the “release maker” capability of Polyphone which, artificially, sets proper release times. 
 
John B.

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Re: Release Sample

grahamg
In reply to this post by Aaron Laws
Hi Aaron,

On 6/27/17, Aaron Laws <[hidden email]> wrote:
> How do release samples work?

I'm going to talk about real release wave files, not the ADSR releases
that most soundfonts use, those are merely fade outs of the sustain.

In regard to SF2, GIGA, GrandOrgue, and Hauptwerk, ALL rely on a fade
out of the sustain portion and a fade into the release portion. The
crossfade in GrandOrgue has been improved since Nick commented on it
three years ago. In GrandOrgue and Haupwerk the crossfade amount is
programmable per sample in the organ definition file. In Gigastudio it
is set in the release definition, and in Soundfonts the fade out is
programmed via ADSR values and the fade in is manually created in the
release wave file.

Keep in mind that creating a soundfont release sample requires the
creator to have a separate wave file for the release that has a
portion of looped silence before the release portion. The looped
silence plays during the sustain portion of the note, and then the
rest of the wave file plays once the note is released.

GrandOrgue and Hauptwerk use release markers, and so can have the
release portion as part of the same wave file as the attack and
sustain, or have it as a separate file. Giga has the release portion
as a separate file that plays on Note Off.

GG

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Graham Goode
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
VPOs with jOrgan, LinuxSampler, Fluidsynth, SFZ, GrandOrgue, NI Kontakt, and Hauptwerk
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Re: Release Sample

Graham Wykes
Can I just add here that SFZ puts the release sample in a layer with a directive to not begin playing until the note release is detected.

Cheers
Graham W

On 27 Jun 2017 3:52 PM, "Graham Goode" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Aaron,

On 6/27/17, Aaron Laws <[hidden email]> wrote:
> How do release samples work?

I'm going to talk about real release wave files, not the ADSR releases
that most soundfonts use, those are merely fade outs of the sustain.

In regard to SF2, GIGA, GrandOrgue, and Hauptwerk, ALL rely on a fade
out of the sustain portion and a fade into the release portion. The
crossfade in GrandOrgue has been improved since Nick commented on it
three years ago. In GrandOrgue and Haupwerk the crossfade amount is
programmable per sample in the organ definition file. In Gigastudio it
is set in the release definition, and in Soundfonts the fade out is
programmed via ADSR values and the fade in is manually created in the
release wave file.

Keep in mind that creating a soundfont release sample requires the
creator to have a separate wave file for the release that has a
portion of looped silence before the release portion. The looped
silence plays during the sustain portion of the note, and then the
rest of the wave file plays once the note is released.

GrandOrgue and Hauptwerk use release markers, and so can have the
release portion as part of the same wave file as the attack and
sustain, or have it as a separate file. Giga has the release portion
as a separate file that plays on Note Off.

GG

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Re: Release Sample

John Reimer
Administrator
In reply to this post by grahamg
grahamg wrote
In regard to SF2, GIGA, GrandOrgue, and Hauptwerk, ALL rely on a fade
out of the sustain portion and a fade into the release portion. The
crossfade in GrandOrgue has been improved since Nick commented on it
three years ago.
GrahamG,

I am pleased to hear that GO has improved the matter since Nick Appleton commented on it. But in what respect has it improved it? Does it solve the phase difference problem? Does Hauptwerk solve it, and if so how? I don’t see how the rest of what you say in your post, and what Graham Wykes says in his post re SFZ, actually address the phase problem.

John Reimer
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Re: Release Sample

grahamg
Hi JohnR,

Crossfades minimise the phase problem, they don't get rid of it 100%.

The longer the crossfade, the lower the amount of phasing, but that
has to be balanced against the sound of the release. Typically a
crossfade of 20ms is applied. GO improved crossfade by tightening up
the type of fade in and out, and allowing the organ definition file to
set a longer or shorter length when needed.

So, as the sustain portion is fading out, the release portion is
fading in. At 50% into the fades the amplitude of both are equal, and
at that point some phase issues can occur, but they fade out very
quickly thereafter.

GrahamG

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Graham Goode
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
VPOs with jOrgan, LinuxSampler, Fluidsynth, SFZ, GrandOrgue, NI Kontakt, and Hauptwerk
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Re: Release Sample

John Reimer
Administrator
grahamg wrote
Crossfades minimise the phase problem, they don't get rid of it 100%.

The longer the crossfade, the lower the amount of phasing, but that has to be balanced against the sound of the release. Typically a crossfade of 20ms is applied.
Graham,

Thank you. 20ms is very short. It strikes me that this is getting down to what the human hearing can process. So that seems a reasonable solution.

John Reimer
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Re: Release Sample

Aaron Laws
In reply to this post by grahamg
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 1:52 AM, Graham Goode <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Aaron,

On 6/27/17, Aaron Laws <[hidden email]> wrote:
> How do release samples work?

I'm going to talk about real release wave files, not the ADSR releases
that most soundfonts use, those are merely fade outs of the sustain.

In regard to SF2, GIGA, GrandOrgue, and Hauptwerk, ALL rely on a fade
out of the sustain portion and a fade into the release portion. The
crossfade in GrandOrgue has been improved since Nick commented on it
three years ago. In GrandOrgue and Haupwerk the crossfade amount is
programmable per sample in the organ definition file. In Gigastudio it
is set in the release definition, and in Soundfonts the fade out is
programmed via ADSR values and the fade in is manually created in the
release wave file.

Keep in mind that creating a soundfont release sample requires the
creator to have a separate wave file for the release that has a
portion of looped silence before the release portion. The looped
silence plays during the sustain portion of the note, and then the
rest of the wave file plays once the note is released.

GrandOrgue and Hauptwerk use release markers, and so can have the
release portion as part of the same wave file as the attack and
sustain, or have it as a separate file. Giga has the release portion
as a separate file that plays on Note Off.

GG

Thank you for the detail here; that's very helpful.

In Christ,
Aaron Laws 

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Re: Release Sample

keith56
Hello to all

Hope someone can help me with jorgan audio questions. I have an 8 channel audio system I am using with hauptwerk basic at this time but it only has 2 channel audio in the basic edition so I am not getting the full advantage of my system. I used jorgan a few years ago but had a much smaller system at the time. I don't want to spend money to get the advanced addition of HW in that I think I like jorgan and grandorgue better and no cost. I do however want to enjoy the advantage of my audio. My question is does jorgan have multi channel? My 3 manual digital organ has full midi from the factory but is a model from early 90's and sound as good as todays sampling. I am trying to gather information and advice from someone with experience. Everything, pistons draw knobs, couplers expression is midi. I would not need touch screens. I have considered Artisan sound engine but very expensive.  I have a i5 dell fast processor with 1 tarabite and 16gigs ram. If jorgan has multi channel with a little help configuring I have all I need to have a great sounding organ without spending more. Any with experience that can give some advice and a little help setting it up would be most appreciated. Best regards William

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 9:19 AM, Aaron Laws <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 1:52 AM, Graham Goode <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Aaron,

On 6/27/17, Aaron Laws <[hidden email]> wrote:
> How do release samples work?

I'm going to talk about real release wave files, not the ADSR releases
that most soundfonts use, those are merely fade outs of the sustain.

In regard to SF2, GIGA, GrandOrgue, and Hauptwerk, ALL rely on a fade
out of the sustain portion and a fade into the release portion. The
crossfade in GrandOrgue has been improved since Nick commented on it
three years ago. In GrandOrgue and Haupwerk the crossfade amount is
programmable per sample in the organ definition file. In Gigastudio it
is set in the release definition, and in Soundfonts the fade out is
programmed via ADSR values and the fade in is manually created in the
release wave file.

Keep in mind that creating a soundfont release sample requires the
creator to have a separate wave file for the release that has a
portion of looped silence before the release portion. The looped
silence plays during the sustain portion of the note, and then the
rest of the wave file plays once the note is released.

GrandOrgue and Hauptwerk use release markers, and so can have the
release portion as part of the same wave file as the attack and
sustain, or have it as a separate file. Giga has the release portion
as a separate file that plays on Note Off.

GG

Thank you for the detail here; that's very helpful.

In Christ,
Aaron Laws 

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Re: Release Sample

greenfox
Hello William

What jOrgan dispositions are you currently using, or interested in using?

Adapting jOrgan to use your multi-channel system will mean adapting each organ disposition individually to use multiple channels. It will require you learning how jOrgan makes these links and making the changes in construct mode. If you were to download an updated version of even the same jOrgan disposition, you would need to make all the channel adaptations again.
Multi-channel use is not simply a one-off group of settings that will automatically be applied to all dispositions in jOrgan. 

I don't know much about Hauptwerk, but I do understand that the multi-channel function can be more than just allocating ranks to specific channels. It can also be to split ranks through two or more channels to avoid 3rds and 5ths of the same rank playing through the same channel. This level of splitting is not feasible in jOrgan.

Are you still keen to pursue this path? 

Regards
Rick

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 at 12:14 William Blalock <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello to all

Hope someone can help me with jorgan audio questions. I have an 8 channel audio system I am using with hauptwerk basic at this time but it only has 2 channel audio in the basic edition so I am not getting the full advantage of my system. I used jorgan a few years ago but had a much smaller system at the time. I don't want to spend money to get the advanced addition of HW in that I think I like jorgan and grandorgue better and no cost. I do however want to enjoy the advantage of my audio. My question is does jorgan have multi channel? My 3 manual digital organ has full midi from the factory but is a model from early 90's and sound as good as todays sampling. I am trying to gather information and advice from someone with experience. Everything, pistons draw knobs, couplers expression is midi. I would not need touch screens. I have considered Artisan sound engine but very expensive.  I have a i5 dell fast processor with 1 tarabite and 16gigs ram. If jorgan has multi channel with a little help configuring I have all I need to have a great sounding organ without spending more. Any with experience that can give some advice and a little help setting it up would be most appreciated. Best regards William

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 9:19 AM, Aaron Laws <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 1:52 AM, Graham Goode <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Aaron,

On 6/27/17, Aaron Laws <[hidden email]> wrote:
> How do release samples work?

I'm going to talk about real release wave files, not the ADSR releases
that most soundfonts use, those are merely fade outs of the sustain.

In regard to SF2, GIGA, GrandOrgue, and Hauptwerk, ALL rely on a fade
out of the sustain portion and a fade into the release portion. The
crossfade in GrandOrgue has been improved since Nick commented on it
three years ago. In GrandOrgue and Haupwerk the crossfade amount is
programmable per sample in the organ definition file. In Gigastudio it
is set in the release definition, and in Soundfonts the fade out is
programmed via ADSR values and the fade in is manually created in the
release wave file.

Keep in mind that creating a soundfont release sample requires the
creator to have a separate wave file for the release that has a
portion of looped silence before the release portion. The looped
silence plays during the sustain portion of the note, and then the
rest of the wave file plays once the note is released.

GrandOrgue and Hauptwerk use release markers, and so can have the
release portion as part of the same wave file as the attack and
sustain, or have it as a separate file. Giga has the release portion
as a separate file that plays on Note Off.

GG

Thank you for the detail here; that's very helpful.

In Christ,
Aaron Laws 

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