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Reit

BrianS
I wish there was a jOrgan setting that would allow me to change any instrument (like a mandolin or banjo) from a single pluck, to a reit plucking of the sound.

I want this to be applicable to any soundsource, for example an external midi sound generator.  I know it can be done in the soundfont, but that is not what I want.
Regards,

BrianS
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Re: Reit

RoyR
   Yes, I'd like an answer to that one too. My Edirol units only give a single "Plink" per note-on for things like banjo, mandolin etc. Would be nice to have a continuous tremolo effect.

      Have fun,

            Roy.


On 8 May 2017 at 12:40, BrianS <[hidden email]> wrote:
I wish there was a jOrgan setting that would allow me to change any
instrument (like a mandolin or banjo) from a single pluck, to a reit
plucking of the sound.

I want this to be applicable to any soundsource, for example an external
midi sound generator.  I know it can be done in the soundfont, but that is
not what I want.




-----
Regards,

BrianS
--
View this message in context: http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/Reit-tp4664913.html
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Re: Reit

Aaron Laws
In reply to this post by BrianS
On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 7:40 AM, BrianS <[hidden email]> wrote:
I wish there was a jOrgan setting that would allow me to change any
instrument (like a mandolin or banjo) from a single pluck, to a reit
plucking of the sound.

I want this to be applicable to any soundsource, for example an external
midi sound generator.  I know it can be done in the soundfont, but that is
not what I want.




-----
Regards,

BrianS


I would think this should be a "stop"-level property, no? How would it work, though? For instance, let's say the stop has a property: repeat frequency (ms). So a value of 200 would create a new note-on message every 200 ms, and a note off message just before each note on? Should they overlap?

Sounds like a good idea. If the note off messages can be negotiated, the most general way to implement this would be to take a list of numbers and an option to repeat. The list of numbers would be the number of milliseconds to wait until playing the sound again. So if rather than having the note repeat with perfect regularity, you wanted a note to sound 1) at the keypress, 2) 50 ms after, 3) 100 ms after, and 4) 200 milliseconds after, provide the numbers, 0,50,100,200. This could be used to create a ragged-sounding tremolo:  0,250,550,700,950,1225,1500,1775; with repeat ? It would average to four times per second, but irregular rather than computer-perfect.

In Christ,
Aaron Laws 


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Re: Reit

BrianS
Aaron,

I like your idea.

Brian.
Regards,

BrianS
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Re: Reit

Paul Stratman-2
This could be done with a coupler, and we can use synchronizers to turn the coupler on and off at the desired frequency (a trick I've used in the wind destabilizer engine). The coupler could make the effect work for all stops on one manual, selected stops, all stops, whatever you want.
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Re: Reit

free-vpo
In reply to this post by BrianS
Hi,
I propose a "disposition" which offers a "Reit" function, with a coupler having a delay, and two synchronizers. A second coupler without delay allows to get rid of the reit. The "mandol-diagram" file explains the operation.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AgIqyHHOK9MihEOLcLxPi0jV8Yvc

It is not possible to vary the delay in "live" with this solution. But in practice, this is of little use I think. We can of course modify this delay in construction mode.
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Re: Reit

grahamg
Brilliant! Thanks for sharing this... I downloaded it and am examining it -

It looks like you create a Switch filter, two synchronizers, two
couplers, and the usual Keyboard/Stop/Rank/Sound elements. The On/Off
coupler adds the Stop to the Keyboard (in practice it would be the
only element visible and would have the name of the Reit Stop).
Synchronizer 1 references to the 2nd coupler (which sets the
Reiteration rate in the Duration property), and then to the Switch
filter. The second Synchronizer references to the Switch filter and
then to the 2nd coupler (opposite of synch 1, in essence synch 1 is
the Note On and synch 2 is the Note off). The Synchronizer, Switch
filter, Stop, and 2nd Coupler are then all set to Active=True (so
they're always on). Then the On/Off coupler is used to turn the
reiterating On and Off.

Thanks!!!!

GG

On 5/16/17, free-vpo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
> I propose a "disposition" which offers a "Reit" function, with a coupler
> having a delay, and two synchronizers. A second coupler without delay
> allows
> to get rid of the reit. The "mandol-diagram" file explains the operation.
>
> https://1drv.ms/f/s!AgIqyHHOK9MihEOLcLxPi0jV8Yvc
> <https://1drv.ms/f/s!AgIqyHHOK9MihEOLcLxPi0jV8Yvc>
>
> It is not possible to vary the delay in "live" with this solution. But in
> practice, this is of little use I think. We can of course modify this delay
> in construction mode.
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/Reit-tp4664913p4664938.html
> Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> jOrgan-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user
>

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Re: Reit

grahamg
One thing I missed in the description was that the 2nd coupler also
references to the Stop.

On 5/17/17, Graham Goode <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Brilliant! Thanks for sharing this... I downloaded it and am examining it -
>
> It looks like you create a Switch filter, two synchronizers, two
> couplers, and the usual Keyboard/Stop/Rank/Sound elements. The On/Off
> coupler adds the Stop to the Keyboard (in practice it would be the
> only element visible and would have the name of the Reit Stop).
> Synchronizer 1 references to the 2nd coupler (which sets the
> Reiteration rate in the Duration property), and then to the Switch
> filter. The second Synchronizer references to the Switch filter and
> then to the 2nd coupler (opposite of synch 1, in essence synch 1 is
> the Note On and synch 2 is the Note off). The Synchronizer, Switch
> filter, Stop, and 2nd Coupler are then all set to Active=True (so
> they're always on). Then the On/Off coupler is used to turn the
> reiterating On and Off.
>
> Thanks!!!!
>
> GG
>
> On 5/16/17, free-vpo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I propose a "disposition" which offers a "Reit" function, with a coupler
>> having a delay, and two synchronizers. A second coupler without delay
>> allows
>> to get rid of the reit. The "mandol-diagram" file explains the operation.
>>
>> https://1drv.ms/f/s!AgIqyHHOK9MihEOLcLxPi0jV8Yvc
>> <https://1drv.ms/f/s!AgIqyHHOK9MihEOLcLxPi0jV8Yvc>
>>
>> It is not possible to vary the delay in "live" with this solution. But in
>> practice, this is of little use I think. We can of course modify this
>> delay
>> in construction mode.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/Reit-tp4664913p4664938.html
>> Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> jOrgan-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user
>>
>

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Re: Reit

grahamg
And then onto the deeper details, now that I have reproduced it in
another disposition.

The On / Off coupler's Action is set to Inverse.

The Reit Synch 1's (Note On) When activated remains as ACTIVATE, but
the When deactivated is set to IGNORE

The Reit Synch 2's (Note Off) When activated is set to DEACTIVATE, but
the When deactivated is set to ACTIVATE

So I now have a Reiterating Glockenspiel on the Barton 3/12 (for test purposes)

:)

GG


On 5/17/17, Graham Goode <[hidden email]> wrote:

> One thing I missed in the description was that the 2nd coupler also
> references to the Stop.
>
> On 5/17/17, Graham Goode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Brilliant! Thanks for sharing this... I downloaded it and am examining it
>> -
>>
>> It looks like you create a Switch filter, two synchronizers, two
>> couplers, and the usual Keyboard/Stop/Rank/Sound elements. The On/Off
>> coupler adds the Stop to the Keyboard (in practice it would be the
>> only element visible and would have the name of the Reit Stop).
>> Synchronizer 1 references to the 2nd coupler (which sets the
>> Reiteration rate in the Duration property), and then to the Switch
>> filter. The second Synchronizer references to the Switch filter and
>> then to the 2nd coupler (opposite of synch 1, in essence synch 1 is
>> the Note On and synch 2 is the Note off). The Synchronizer, Switch
>> filter, Stop, and 2nd Coupler are then all set to Active=True (so
>> they're always on). Then the On/Off coupler is used to turn the
>> reiterating On and Off.
>>
>> Thanks!!!!
>>
>> GG
>>
>> On 5/16/17, free-vpo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I propose a "disposition" which offers a "Reit" function, with a coupler
>>> having a delay, and two synchronizers. A second coupler without delay
>>> allows
>>> to get rid of the reit. The "mandol-diagram" file explains the
>>> operation.
>>>
>>> https://1drv.ms/f/s!AgIqyHHOK9MihEOLcLxPi0jV8Yvc
>>> <https://1drv.ms/f/s!AgIqyHHOK9MihEOLcLxPi0jV8Yvc>
>>>
>>> It is not possible to vary the delay in "live" with this solution. But
>>> in
>>> practice, this is of little use I think. We can of course modify this
>>> delay
>>> in construction mode.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/Reit-tp4664913p4664938.html
>>> Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> jOrgan-user mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user
>>>
>>
>

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Re: Reit

grahamg
And so I found that if the Stop is constantly active and hidden, then
the Glock will always play. So I added an Activator for the On/Off
Coupler and the Stop, set both to start as off. So the Activator puts
the On/Off Coupler and Stop On and Off, and it all works as I was
hoping :)

On 5/17/17, Graham Goode <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And then onto the deeper details, now that I have reproduced it in
> another disposition.
>
> The On / Off coupler's Action is set to Inverse.
>
> The Reit Synch 1's (Note On) When activated remains as ACTIVATE, but
> the When deactivated is set to IGNORE
>
> The Reit Synch 2's (Note Off) When activated is set to DEACTIVATE, but
> the When deactivated is set to ACTIVATE
>
> So I now have a Reiterating Glockenspiel on the Barton 3/12 (for test
> purposes)
>
> :)
>
> GG
>
>
> On 5/17/17, Graham Goode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> One thing I missed in the description was that the 2nd coupler also
>> references to the Stop.
>>
>> On 5/17/17, Graham Goode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Brilliant! Thanks for sharing this... I downloaded it and am examining
>>> it
>>> -
>>>
>>> It looks like you create a Switch filter, two synchronizers, two
>>> couplers, and the usual Keyboard/Stop/Rank/Sound elements. The On/Off
>>> coupler adds the Stop to the Keyboard (in practice it would be the
>>> only element visible and would have the name of the Reit Stop).
>>> Synchronizer 1 references to the 2nd coupler (which sets the
>>> Reiteration rate in the Duration property), and then to the Switch
>>> filter. The second Synchronizer references to the Switch filter and
>>> then to the 2nd coupler (opposite of synch 1, in essence synch 1 is
>>> the Note On and synch 2 is the Note off). The Synchronizer, Switch
>>> filter, Stop, and 2nd Coupler are then all set to Active=True (so
>>> they're always on). Then the On/Off coupler is used to turn the
>>> reiterating On and Off.
>>>
>>> Thanks!!!!
>>>
>>> GG
>>>
>>> On 5/16/17, free-vpo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I propose a "disposition" which offers a "Reit" function, with a
>>>> coupler
>>>> having a delay, and two synchronizers. A second coupler without delay
>>>> allows
>>>> to get rid of the reit. The "mandol-diagram" file explains the
>>>> operation.
>>>>
>>>> https://1drv.ms/f/s!AgIqyHHOK9MihEOLcLxPi0jV8Yvc
>>>> <https://1drv.ms/f/s!AgIqyHHOK9MihEOLcLxPi0jV8Yvc>
>>>>
>>>> It is not possible to vary the delay in "live" with this solution. But
>>>> in
>>>> practice, this is of little use I think. We can of course modify this
>>>> delay
>>>> in construction mode.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context:
>>>> http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/Reit-tp4664913p4664938.html
>>>> Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> jOrgan-user mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

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Re: Reit

BrianS
This is wonderful news.  I have never been really pleased with the re-it function that is supplied inside the soundfont.  And the thing is,  I have sounds in in 'hardware' soundmodule, that I would like to have re-it, so the possibility of doing it to the sample does not exist.  I would like the Mandolin and some bells to have the reit function, and it looks possible now.

Graham,

Could you possibly draw a diagram of what needs to be done to make this work, please.  This means now that any useful stop that I have wanted to re-it in the past, can now do it.

The next step would still need to be to embid this function into jOrgan as a simpler implementation, that would be awsome.

Thank you to all involved.

Brian.
Regards,

BrianS
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Re: Reit

free-vpo
Mandolin, implementation:

The disposition I have proposed presents all the elements visible on the console for easy understanding. In practice, just leave the "trem on / off" coupler and the stop, the other elements (sync, sw1) no longer being referenced by the console.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgIqyHHOK9MihEWD-qsgMMbTPzKV

The two couplers can reference several stops (linked to several ranks) to produce the desired tremolo effect on these stops. The mechanism can be transposed as such into a larger disposition. The diagram (pdf) that I attached specifies the operation. I hope that helps.
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Re: Reit

BrianS
Hi Free VPO, (Sorry, I don't know your name).

Thank you so much for this, I really appreciate it very much.

Regards,

Brian.
Regards,

BrianS
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Re: Reit

John Reimer
Administrator
In reply to this post by free-vpo
free-vpo wrote
The two couplers can reference several stops (linked to several ranks) to produce the desired tremolo effect on these stops. The mechanism can be transposed as such into a larger disposition. The diagram (pdf) that I attached specifies the operation. I hope that helps.
free-vpo,

Congratulations! I can confirm that the mechanism works well. It was easy to go to Construct to make the repetitions a bit slower (I changed the Duration from 120 to 175). Also, not liking the very abrupt onset of the example sound, I loaded a VPO soundfont where the preset number lined up (Bank 0, Preset 0) with a pipe rank I was familiar with. That was instructive, because I soon discovered that the effect certainly needs percussive starts to work well. With fairly typical flue pipe "slow" attacks and releases, it is not as impressive. Of course, you have called the sample disposition Mandolin, and I imagine that most people would have enough sense not to have high expectations when doing what I tried out.

I assume that the pdf was an attachment to your Forum post. Unfortunately attachments mostly get disallowed by Nabble.

John Reimer
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Re: Reit

free-vpo
Hi John,

The sample I used in the demo is a classic organ sound (!). But it is true that a mandolin effect is not musically very suitable for an organ sound of this type!

In addition, the file "mandol-diagram.pdf" is located in the compressed folder "MANDOL.7z" already communicated, with layout, skin and soundfont.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AgIqyHHOK9MihEOLcLxPi0jV8Yvc

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Re: Reit

John Reimer
Administrator
free-vpo wrote
the file "mandol-diagram.pdf" is located in the compressed folder "MANDOL.7z" already communicated, with layout, skin and soundfont.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AgIqyHHOK9MihEOLcLxPi0jV8Yvc
free-vpo,

Thank you. I missed that original One Drive download, because Microsoft seems to be refusing my Linux/Firefox browser access to Hotmail (been happening a long time) and now One Drive as well. I had to go to Windows to get the second download. That meant I assumed I had to use the jOrgan example-disposition sound, which I can assure you is not a classical pipe sound at all (at least in my opinion). But my discovery about the need to have fairly abrupt onsets for the re-it to work well, is probably important for any folk who want to try it out.

John Reimer
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Re: Reit

BrianS
This post was updated on .
Hi Free-VPO,

What is the difference between mandol-1 and mandol-2?

I could not manage to get mandol-2 to do anything.  But I could manage mandol-1 to do what I wanted it to do - I connected my mandolin stop, and it works like a charm.  Next I would like to replace the stops in my customized Christie (and any other VPO that comes to mind, with this method of reitteration, it is much better (to me that is).  Thank you to everybody who worked this out.

Brian.
Regards,

BrianS
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Re: Reit

BrianS
I have now modified my disposition, so that I can have sounds from a midi hardware sound source, play in the 'reit' mode, this is simmilar to Trem on a violin, I think.

It works well, but on the Pi, it seems it is not powerfull enough to reit at the desired rate, as I can't seem to get a decent rate from it, it is always 'slowish'.  This is a pitty, but perhaps I am doing something wrong.

Brian.
Regards,

BrianS
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Re: Reit

John Reimer
Administrator
BrianS wrote
 play in the 'reit' mode, this is simmilar to Trem on a violin, I think.
Brian,

The recently-invented Reit is definitely a Tremulant effect - i.e. it imparts what is basically an AMPLITUDE modulation to the tone. That is also what the Tremulant is on pipe organs, and in most cases it works by modulating the wind pressure applied to the pipes. However, because the pitch of pipes is sensitive to the actual wind pressure (probably some ranks more than others), as well as the amplitude modulation, there is also some pitch modulation occurring.

A violinist by "shaking" the finger which is determining the current pitch of the note, is actually modulating the PITCH of the note, and that is referred to as Vibrato. The soundfont parameters allow us to modulate either the amplitude or the pitch of the note, or both together, if we wish.

By the way, if you are not getting a good effect with the Reit on particular notes, it may be because their samples do not have a very abrupt onset, as I suggested in my previous post.

John Reimer
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Re: Reit

RoyR
Hi, John,

              I believe there is a Tremolo effect for strings in which the player, instead of wiggling the left hand for Vibrato, uses the bow in short, rapid up and down movements.

   The Edirol MIDI Modules have a patch called Tremolo Strings in which the whole string section do something like that that.

      Have fun,

            Roy.


On 19 May 2017 at 12:17, John Reimer <[hidden email]> wrote:
BrianS wrote
>  play in the 'reit' mode, this is simmilar to Trem on a violin, I think.

Brian,

The recently-invented Reit is definitely a Tremulant effect - i.e. it
imparts what is basically an AMPLITUDE modulation to the tone. That is also
what the Tremulant is on pipe organs, and in most cases it works by
modulating the wind pressure applied to the pipes. However, because the
pitch of pipes is sensitive to the actual wind pressure (probably some ranks
more than others), as well as the amplitude modulation, there is also some
pitch modulation occurring.

A violinist by "shaking" the finger which is determining the current pitch
of the note, is actually modulating the PITCH of the note, and that is
referred to as Vibrato. The soundfont parameters allow us to modulate either
the amplitude or the pitch of the note, or both together, if we wish.

By the way, if you are not getting a good effect with the Reit on particular
notes, it may be because their samples do not have a very abrupt onset, as I
suggested in my previous post.

John Reimer




--
View this message in context: http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/Reit-tp4664913p4664954.html
Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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