Re: Organ on a Mac Computer

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Re: Organ on a Mac Computer

Julie Porter
 I have been running two almost identical instances of jOrgan with Mac for a year or so now.  It simply works.  The only issue is that the people who use these instruments want better soundfonts.   I mixed samples from different dispositions,  So there are different recording (room reverb?) effects between the ranks.

The instrument at the house my dad uses almost everyday.  This is in an Original Wurlitzer console from the 1920s.  My dad uses the EZPlay music he got when taking lessons on a Conn organ decades ago.   Most of his comments regarding sound quality relate to the reed sounds.  When he play more classical stuff, it sounds a lot fuller.

The other instrument in a theater, where it is used infrequently.  I put the mac & speakers along with the interface (Based on an Arduino Leonardo)  onto a separate "Tea cart"  This way it can be wheeled next to the console when needed.  The Wurlitzer console for the theater's pipes is also on wheels and has to be moved into the theater.  Currently we are working on adding SAMs to the Morton console as we prepare to install the lift in the pit.

As I have noted  to the list, I wrote scripts (In the printer language Postscript) which take a definition from the Pipe organ relay (Emutek or Uniflex) and it creates a jOrgan disposition automatically.   I also tested this on Raspberry Pi, although I never got a sound interface for the PI.

Getting good soundfonts seems to be the main issue.  Especially ones that can mix between dispositions.  The jOrgan is really close, which makes it more awkward to get that last 10 to 1% in the effect.  Like many things  there is a real art to balancing the sounds, which take time, and like any voicing and tuning operation is boring and repetitive.

-jP


This thread is even older than the other one I "revived". I have brought this
one to your attention in the hope that it may provoke some up-to-date
discussion on running jOrgan on the later versions of Mac. Responses from
actual Mac users would be greatly appreciated.

John Reimer



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Re: Organ on a Mac Computer

John Reimer
Administrator
Julie Porter wrote
> I have been running two almost identical instances of jOrgan with Mac for
> a year or so now.  It simply works.  The only issue is that the people who
> use these instruments want better soundfonts.

Hi Julie,

Thank you very much. I am very interested to hear what version(s) of Mac you
are using (that is, the OS’s). In our Wiki, Sven said that jOrgan works OK
on “Leopard”. There have been  several new versions since then. One of the
links in those two threads I put up, said that jOrgan was working on “Lion”
and “Mavericks” (all this is from memory). But even those are not the most
recent. We do need to hear from Mac users who are having problems with using
jOrgan.  We can’t do anything about problems unless we hear.

Regarding soundfont quality, YES! I have spent the 14 years of my retirement
learning how to use jOrgan and how to create better samples - i.e. samples
which I as a player of small tracker pipe organs found satisfying. It is the
end of a quest which has taken me 60 years - to find a pipe organ substitute
which I found sufficiently satisfying (if not convincing)!

With my recent VPO’s using dual samples per note (allowing the user to
perform some measure of revoicing to cope with room and loudspeaker
variations) I am at last satisfied. At last, I feel I can lay down my
microphone. All I want to do now is to play them, and marvel at the uncanny
similarity to real and beautiful pipe sounds. The SYDNEY SCHUKE is the one
which shows this the most. The microphone was only a meter or so from most
of the pipes.

People may grumble that these are fairly small pipe organs in these free
VPO’s. They may change their tune if they had to spend 15-20 minutes making
each sample (6 samples per octave). Anyway, they can always learn to use a
soundfont editor and make up much larger soundfonts by importing presets
from a variety of other soundfonts. Not a lot of work involved there.

Again, I am grateful for your reply, and hope to learn which Mac OS’s you
use.

John Reimer




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Re: Organ on a Mac Computer

Brian Sweetnam
Hi Julie / John,

If I may chime in.  I do believe that jOrgan will run smoothly on a Mac.
However, I have not yet tried running jOrgan on my Imac, I might try one
day. I cannot however see this going mainstream, like using Windows,
because, to run jOrgan on OSX seems prohibitively expensive.  Help me
understand if I'm wrong in this regard. I have with great success managed to
run jOrgan on both Raspberry Pi 3 model B, as well as on Latte Panda.  Both
are small SBC's - well the Latte Panda, is slightly larger than a credit
card - but only slightly - negligible.





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Re: Organ on a Mac Computer

jOrgan - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Julie Porter
Not interested at all in Mac.

However ... your work with pipe consoles as well as speaker cabs is more than appropriate to my need. 
I have been unable to create jOrgan due to circumstances beyond my control
:(

I have created a fantastic sound playing the 19 MidiTzer 260 ranks through 16 channels of individual soundfonts into 30 specially created speakers, as well as my Roland Sound Canvas (My Wersi MIDI rackmount up and died on me). 

I set up a rather dry sound from soundfonts, enabling them to blend in the ambient atmosphere, as though pipes played from chambers - is that what you do in theatre environment? 

Do I understand you mix pipe and speaker tones together into the room ambience? If so, why should it make a difference how dry are the speakers if they are situated up in the pipe chambers where sounds of the dry pipes emanate?

Since I wish to augment my speakers with four ranks of winded pipes that will play their "dry" reverb, I do not understand how it would be to hear complimenting speaker sounds playing artificial reverb.

If and when I ever get my jOrgan operational (enabling me to create my 5 manual custom console) I believe there will be a way add speaker reverb selectively thru the outputs.

At present, I run a separate parallel feed from each of my soundcard sends (with as dry ranks as I can utilize, installed in Windoze computer) running thru 16 channels of a recording stage mixer to run all the sounds discretely thru a reverb unit to flavor the organ tones.

Please keep us in touch with your project. Although my efforts are all but suicidal, I believe jOrgan architecture will enable me to achieve my ultimate goal, seeking any information you can provide, even if not in the Microsoft platform.

pk




Saturday, March 17, 2018, 4:06 PM PDT, Julie Porter wrote:

<snip>
I have been running two almost identical instances of jOrgan with Mac for a year or so now.  It simply works.  The only issue is that the people who use these instruments want better soundfonts.   I mixed samples from different dispositions,  So there are different recording (room reverb?) effects between the ranks.
<snip>

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Re: Organ on a Mac Computer

Julie Porter
In reply to this post by Julie Porter
There seems to be a lot of confusion from non mac users, when it comes to variations on the systems.  Could be that Macs will last a decade or more, where PCs cycle at 18 months.  Actually the whole industry cycles at 18 months called Moores law.

The simplest answer is I am currently running Sierra.  Which is not quite the latest.   The iMac desktop in Pittsburg Ca, can not upgrade past Sierra.  A fault where apple blocks upgrades after about 7 years.  I have not bothered to upgrade the Mac Mini here in the house past Sierra either.    Typically apple keeps legacy code in core for about 20 years.  Eventually I suspect they will drop Mac OS completely in favor of IOS.

The thread you quote is ages old.  It seems to be from when apple switched from Power PC to intel processors.   Most of that has little relevance at the time of this answer.   I can nor remember if I installed jOrgan on a power PC laptop or not.  A lot of the 3D printer software requires Java and Python  At one time I installed net beans on my laptop.  Never did much with it, also installed Eclipse for the microconroller work.   I got tired of chasing the library versions.   I actually worked for a company in the 1990s where I replaced a guy who went through the code and added his initials to all the function names.

Actually I have found the version revisionism in the Linux world to be worse than that of Apple or Microsoft.  With the commercial OSs break things and there is hell to pay.   Programming now called  coding, is a youth oriented business,  Hire cheap college graduates, then boot them after a couple of years or deport them to their home country.   There is also the idea that people who were replaced were inferior, and what they wrote a sign of incompetence as it had bugs in it.   We are just starting to learn the effects of social engineering, and the customer is the product.

The jOrgan installer I used was self contained, I think from the soureforge page.  The only caveat is that it was built to an older version of java.   Apple makes a "legacy java installer" available, which can be tricky to find online.  Apple also has a bad habit of removing or moving links from their site to the older software.   The term to use in searching older software on the apple website is add the word "legacy."   If one keeps the legacy installer with the jOrgan installer in a backup, it seems to run on the newer OSs . 

Apple MIDI used to be part of Quicktime.  When Steve Jobs purged all of the Scully projects from the company, the graphics engine was replaced by something called Quartz.  Quartz is based on the backed of the Postscript rendering engine.  Everything is one pixel high and scaled.  Sadly this removed the direct MIDI support from the OS.  Instead in iTunes apple treats midi as audio, "rendering" to the AAC driver it when imported.  Probably due to a DRM thing. Apple really wants users to "render" midi like an image.  This completely breaks the event callback and allows zero access to the header, to change things such as the timings between say a roll image for playback or to drive a punch making new rolls.   Some of this may also  be the way USB transport treats MIDI as a subset of audio.

Hidden inside the Utilities Folder under the Applications folder is a little applet called Audio/MIDI setup.  It is not part of the normal System Preferences for some strange reason.  The icon for this applet is a keyboard.  It is used for patching high end audio gear.   Under the windows tab there is a window called MIDI studio.  This is a page of hidden preferences, showing the connected hardware as ICONS.  One of these is called the IAC driver,  There is a checkbox that says "devices is online."   It must be checked.  This is the software, like Jack , that connects the Apps midi Ins and outs to other apps and hardware ins an outs.    This utility will affect what the JOrgan program will see in the menus.

A lot of Macs have SPDIF built in.  Some like the iMac desktop and the mac mini even have an optical interface hidden inside the headphone connector.  Plug in a fiber and it goes directly to the DAC.   The Pittsburg project was donated some nice Roland monitors, with optical inputs.  These can be daisy chained, and the have Volume knobs on them.  (which disables the volume controller on the ascii keyboard amd menu bar.)  My dad found a set of these monitors cheap on ebay or amazon.


I installed Polyphone some time ago.  Most of the settings look like a wine tasting menu. What is the nose of the bouquet, or has a smokey tannin taste.  I have a hard time with the log based DB settings.  The real issue is people want the sounds Louder. or with more feeling.   But the samples are already maxed at the distortion level.   Adding -volume is really counter intuitive.    This may be a problem inherent in MIDI.  There is no master volume in MIDI. Each instrument is responsible for what it turns on.  So the violins can not change the volume  of the clarinets.   In a stage environment the conductor is the final arbitrator.    This was a real problem when working with the solenoid pianos.   What works in a concert hall does not work in a living room.

One issue I had was I am used to event based systems (real pipe chests) these take an on off message,  So I set the expression volume in the event to 64.   Then there are the fine and corse volumes.   Somewhere someone decided that the corse volume in channel 1 should be master volume (or is that the volume setting in track 1.)   I realized in My arduino interface that I had to change the expression to 127 (max) so the pedal and soundfont controllers could have something to work with.



Hi Julie,

Thank you very much. I am very interested to hear what version(s) of Mac you
are using (that is, the OS?s). In our Wiki, Sven said that jOrgan works OK
on ?Leopard?. There have been  several new versions since then. One of the
links in those two threads I put up, said that jOrgan was working on ?Lion?
and ?Mavericks? (all this is from memory). But even those are not the most
recent. We do need to hear from Mac users who are having problems with using
jOrgan.  We can?t do anything about problems unless we hear.

Regarding soundfont quality, YES! I have spent the 14 years of my retirement
learning how to use jOrgan and how to create better samples - i.e. samples
which I as a player of small tracker pipe organs found satisfying. It is the
end of a quest which has taken me 60 years - to find a pipe organ substitute
which I found sufficiently satisfying (if not convincing)!

With my recent VPO?s using dual samples per note (allowing the user to
perform some measure of revoicing to cope with room and loudspeaker
variations) I am at last satisfied. At last, I feel I can lay down my
microphone. All I want to do now is to play them, and marvel at the uncanny
similarity to real and beautiful pipe sounds. The SYDNEY SCHUKE is the one
which shows this the most. The microphone was only a meter or so from most
of the pipes.

People may grumble that these are fairly small pipe organs in these free
VPO?s. They may change their tune if they had to spend 15-20 minutes making
each sample (6 samples per octave). Anyway, they can always learn to use a
soundfont editor and make up much larger soundfonts by importing presets
from a variety of other soundfonts. Not a lot of work involved there.

Again, I am grateful for your reply, and hope to learn which Mac OS?s you
use.

John Reimer



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Re: Organ on a Mac Computer

eagles051387
In reply to this post by Brian Sweetnam
Hi All,

Brian even though you are correct in that matter. You can actually get a decent macbook air laptop 1075€ or 1320 USD which for a decent windows laptop is roughly the same price. The perks with mac's you get something which is designed to out last their windows couterparts. I have my first macbook pro laptop still in working order from 2009. The initial investment might be pricy but you get a longer life span out of the hardware than a windows laptop. Not to mention they are more durable. I dropped my macbook air on the corner frame no issues just a dent and my older pro on the screen just a dent in the screen and it kept working no problem.

Jonathan Aquilina

On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 1:40 PM, Brian Sweetnam <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Julie / John,

If I may chime in.  I do believe that jOrgan will run smoothly on a Mac.
However, I have not yet tried running jOrgan on my Imac, I might try one
day. I cannot however see this going mainstream, like using Windows,
because, to run jOrgan on OSX seems prohibitively expensive.  Help me
understand if I'm wrong in this regard. I have with great success managed to
run jOrgan on both Raspberry Pi 3 model B, as well as on Latte Panda.  Both
are small SBC's - well the Latte Panda, is slightly larger than a credit
card - but only slightly - negligible.





-----
Regards,

BrianS
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Re: Organ on a Mac Computer

Brian Sweetnam
I really don't have an issue with IMac's, other than that they are really
expensive as compared to Windows computers, or even the Raspberry Pi. I use
a 2014 iMac right next to my Windows 10 computer in my study. My plans are
to use it for my photogrphy hobby, but I have as of date not got around to
spending much time with it.

In an old post Julie mentioned, that it might be conceivable to have one
Raspberry Pi per rank.  This really is a plausible idea, if you use a
Raspberry Pi 0 W, with an add-on HifiBerry card attached on top of the PI.  
I have not yet tested this idea with a Pi-0, but I have tested it with a Pi3
Model B (last year, with the help of Graham Goode), and it worked like a
charm.  One could for example, build a 30 rank classical instrument, with
one pi per rank  = 30 PI's - and 30 soundcards.  It will still be cheaper
doing it this way, as compared to doing it with a Windows computer running 3
audio cards each with 10 outputs. So it is scalable.  I hope to test the
theory this year.  I want to get a couple of Pi-0 W cards, and each one a
small HifiBerry audio card. For the price of a single 10 channel PCI card,
for a windows computer, I can get roughly 20 Raspberry Pi 0 W's, including a
HifiBerry card for each one.  That will give 40 output channels,
 but the micro SD card needed to boot each unit would be extra.  I think it
would still be worth while building a console like this.  Imagine being able
to have your own 40 channel VPO - and having it on a budget.  I will report
back on the performance of this setup, but I will only be testing with 2
Raspberry PI 0 W's and soundcards.  For the rest, I will use my other two
Raspberry 3B model B cards.



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Re: Organ on a Mac Computer

Quido
In reply to this post by Julie Porter
I use two computers Mac, for two different uses, which are old but answer
very well:
- MacBook white - Os X Lion 10.7.5
- MacBook alu - Os X El Capitan 10.11.6

I had installation problems in 2014. I had to install and uninstall
Mandalone to work. (See the thread by searching for "quido")

Have a good day!
Dominique




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Re: Organ on a Mac Computer

John Reimer
Administrator
In reply to this post by Julie Porter
Thank you to all Mac users who have replied with reports of having success
with jOrgan on their Mac computers. Obviously jOrgan works up till Sierra.
It would be interesting to hear if there has been success with a Mac OS
later than OSX.

Julie, thank you for taking the time to give us all that detail in your
post. I am assuming that you needed to locate that “legacy” version of Java
for Mac and use it, in order to have success. I am assuming also that you
are using Fluidsynth in the normal way. Please reply only if I have it wrong
on these two matters.

It is the case that I am very much out of my comfort zone when it comes to
Mac computers. But in view of what the SourceForge webpage says about jOrgan
and its suitability for “all systems” I feel we need to make some kind of
effort to address the situation: it is not easy for ordinary users to get
jOrgan running on Mac computers.

Over the past fortnight I have searched the Nabble archive to see the Mac
threads of the past. So far I have concluded that three issues have been
identified:

1. If Mandalone has been included in the particular OSX version, it needs to
be uninstalled.
Here is the relevant Nabble thread:
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/jOrgan-and-Mac-OS-X-10-10-Yosemite-td4661807.html
   
2. If Gatekeeper is there in the particular OSX version, its settings need
to be adjusted so as to allow jOrgan. Here is the link (not from one of our
regular posters, but obviously one who has got jOrgan running well on OSX
Lion and Mavericks):
http://gcc.cervone.net/tech/jorgan_setup.php

3. The jOrgan installer for Mac requires an older version of Java than the
current (latest) one.

The first two issues should be easy for any Mac user to deal with. The third
issue is in our camp, and I imagine that there are people here with the
ability to bring that installer up to date, by making it refer to the most
recent version of Java for OSX (or later). But such a task is completely
beyond my competence, I must admit.

Whether there are other issues in addition, remains to be seen.

John Reimer



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Re: Organ on a Mac Computer

Brian Sweetnam
If only jOrgan could run on Android - but in the same way we run it on other
platforms.  I don't mean the ready-made organs that use the Jeux-xx
soundfonts etc or the Swedish organs on Google Play.

If it could run the way we use it on a computer, and open a custom
disposition, exactly as we do in Windows / OSX / Linux?





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Re: Organ on a Mac Computer

eagles051387
The User Interface would need to be reworked, but technically android applications are written in java. So I am not sure if jorgan would need an entire rework to get it onto android devices, it probably would need some optimization, or if it will be a simple plug and play. for sure we would need a UI rewrite.

Jonathan Aquilina

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 7:08 AM, Brian Sweetnam <[hidden email]> wrote:
If only jOrgan could run on Android - but in the same way we run it on other
platforms.  I don't mean the ready-made organs that use the Jeux-xx
soundfonts etc or the Swedish organs on Google Play.

If it could run the way we use it on a computer, and open a custom
disposition, exactly as we do in Windows / OSX / Linux?





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BrianS
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