Fwd: Re: Fw: Aria Sound Engine vis-a-vis Player

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Fwd: Re: Fw: Aria Sound Engine vis-a-vis Player

David Gritter




-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Aria Sound Engine vis-a-vis Player
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2017 15:16:42 -0400
From: David Gritter [hidden email]
To: Erik De Schrijver [hidden email]


aria player documentation/user manual and notes on using finale with aria player indicate that up to eight instances of aria player can be running, each with a single midi port, allowing a total of 8x16=128 ranks
Thomas Beck is correct that a single instance of linuxsampler can have as many midi input ports as necessary, so the number of SFZ ranks aren't limited there. 

as I see it, the creation of SFZ files, since they are only text, should not be difficult.  SFZ requires separate wav files for the release with a trigger command associated.  I had earlier created a program in Java using the sharkysoft lava jwave library to strip the releases from wave files if they were identified with a marker in the file as is common with hauptwerk and GrandOrgue files.  It shoud be quite simple to extend this to automatically write the region portions of the SFZ file for each wav file.  In the case of one wav file per note, the midi note number can be extracted from the file name. In the case of one wav file over a range of notes some manual editiing may be necessary.   What remains is to add the portions of the SFZ file associated with tremulants and swell pedals.   One note of interest-- GrandOrgue does not appear to allow a variable low pass filter to be associated with expression pedals, making the closed shutter sounds different than they should be.  However GIG and SFZ files seem to make this easy.

However, I also think that once the SFZ information for a single rank is in place (a matter of creating a template for 61 regions,)  the remaining ranks, assuming one sample per note, can be quickly created by simple search/replace operations in a text editor.  The amount of work to create an SFZ file appears to be easier than the amount of work necessary to create a GrandOrgue text file.  If we can agree on a GrandOrgue sample set (hopefully with a limited number of stops) that will permit re-use of the samples, I would certainly be willing to try and create a demo SFZ file and associated documentation. However, I would need to target it to linuxsampler, since I only have linux based computers.

On 06/20/2017 02:26 PM, Erik De Schrijver wrote:
I have not used the ARIA sound engine but the ARIA Player v 1.872.
This is what Panos described in the tutorial included in the jOrgan-ARIA version of the Balzan sample set.

The ARIA Player itself allows you to load a maximum of 16 "instruments"  or sfz files because it provides only 16 slots to do so.
(Sforzando allows only one sfz file to be loaded).

jOrgan in this case is used to send midi output to "generic sound" and that is coupled to the sample player's  input via a virtual midi cable.

All the best.

Erik.
-------------------------------------------------------

John Beach wrote:
Erik,  is the 16 MIDI channel limitation (maximum) standard in the Aria sound engine (as differentiated from the Player)?  The reason I ask is because Garritan Classic Pipe Organs
states that the Aria sound engine is used to play the organs on the CD.  The sound is excellent, but it seems that there can’t be a limitation of 16 channels without a GUI like jOrgan
to overcome the limitation of one organ stop per channel.
 
John Beach
 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Fw: Fw: Fw: Fw: Sf2 limitation
 
Hello,

ARIA Player is the full application with an elaborate GUI. Its most recent version is version 1.872.
It can be obtained free of charge from this website; after making a free user account you can download an installer for ARIA player for MAC or for WINDOWS.

Is contains of course the ARIA Engine.

To check out how it sounds using this sample player, try the sample set Balzan_v1.2_ARIA which you find on Mark Bugeja's web site.
The .rar package includes an excellent tutorial, written by Panos, that explains very clearly how to set up the disposition in jOrgan and use ARIA Player as sound engine.

A limitation is that one instance of ARIA Player can handle a maximum of 16 MIDI channels thus allowing to control 16 ranks maximum.
Dry samples should be used; amount of reverb that sound really good can be added and controlled by individual rank if so desired.
Also a lot of different temperaments can be used, including user made ones as Panos did.

All the best.

Erik.
----------------------------------------
Aaron Laws wrote:
When you say "I need to try ARIA...", you mean http://ariaengine.com/overview/sfz-format/, right? If I'm reading properly, ARIA is an engine, not an application. That is, it's a library whence other applications support their functionality; it's not something a "user" can "use". It exposes an Application Programmer Interface, not a Graphical (or Command Line) User Interface.
 
If I'm wrong, please fill me in; I'm just getting started, and would like to investigate SFZ soundfont creation.


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Re: Fwd: Re: Fw: Aria Sound Engine vis-a-vis Player

John Reimer
Administrator
David Gritter wrote
If we can agree on a
GrandOrgue sample set (hopefully with a limited number of stops) that
will permit re-use of the samples, I would certainly be willing to try
and create a demo SFZ file and associated documentation. However, I
would need to target it to linuxsampler, since I only have linux based
computers.
David,

Thank you very much for your offer. If linux sampler allows the extra complication (multiple releases etc.) that are being sought by a number of us, this will be a great asset. The more valuable options we have, the better, as long as those options can be understood by people without confusion.

John Reimer
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Re: Fwd: Re: Fw: Aria Sound Engine vis-a-vis Player

tbeck
David,

That is a great idea and a very generous offer?

What about the Pitea sample set. That's probably a lot of work, but maybe just one division?

Or perhaps one of the free Hauptwerk sample sets which have attack and release samples? I think some GO odfs have been created for a few of them.



On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 9:04 PM, John Reimer <[hidden email]> wrote:
David Gritter wrote
> If we can agree on a
> GrandOrgue sample set (hopefully with a limited number of stops) that
> will permit re-use of the samples, I would certainly be willing to try
> and create a demo SFZ file and associated documentation. However, I
> would need to target it to linuxsampler, since I only have linux based
> computers.

David,

Thank you very much for your offer. If linux sampler allows the extra
complication (multiple releases etc.) that are being sought by a number of
us, this will be a great asset. The more valuable options we have, the
better, as long as those options can be understood by people without
confusion.

John Reimer




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View this message in context: http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/Fwd-Re-Fw-Aria-Sound-Engine-vis-a-vis-Player-tp4665259p4665262.html
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SFZ test case proposal

David Gritter
In reply to this post by David Gritter
I propose the following as a test case for the SFZ test case

Convert the GrandOrgue version of the Burea Choir organ:
     Its creative commons license will allow us to do this
     It incorporates multiple releases, so the release wav files are
already separate
     It include a reed with a noticeable release transient
     There is already a jorgan version using fluidsynth so
             We can make side by side quality comparisons
             We can modify the Jorgan disposition to drive the SFZ
implementation in linuxsampler

I propose the following as the initial effort I could undertake:

         separate .sfz files for each stop, implementing  a single loop,
single release, and options for swell                 control (initially
just volume, but likely a filter in future)

         At least one SFZ file will be completely documented with comments

         One .lscp file loading the intruments in linuxsampler, creating
two midi ports, a jack audio output, and assigning midi channels

         modified Jorgan disposition file redirecting from fluidsynth to
generic sound sources, one for the                 manual and one for
the pedal

The wav files can be extracted from the grandorgue download  of this
organ and placed in the proper directory structure by those who want to
try this out.   A readme file would provide directions and a graphical
directory structure and I would test the result under linux, but not
under windows.

comments?


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Re: SFZ test case proposal

John Reimer
Administrator
David Gritter wrote
I propose the following as a test case for the SFZ test case

Convert the GrandOrgue version of the Burea Choir organ
David,

Thank you very much for this kind offer. Is it possible to add, on one note of one stop only, so that it doesn't involve too much extra work, multiple release samples corresponding to varying lengths of the note, which you can easily construct simply by using the main release with differing amplitudes - otherwise the current multiple releases for that note, if they exist? (If you can do this, you would need to tell us which note you have chosen.)

My suggestion depends on you discovering somewhere along the line how SFZ can be instructed to choose between various release samples.  Is there a SFZ forum where this matter could be raised?

John Reimer
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Re: SFZ test case proposal

grahamg
In reply to this post by David Gritter
Hi David,

That would be a wonderful contribution to the investigation. 

Kind regards,
GrahamG 


On Jun 22, 2017 at 3:47 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

I propose the following as a test case for the SFZ test case

Convert the GrandOrgue version of the Burea Choir organ:
     Its creative commons license will allow us to do this
     It incorporates multiple releases, so the release wav files are  
already separate
     It include a reed with a noticeable release transient
     There is already a jorgan version using fluidsynth so
             We can make side by side quality comparisons
             We can modify the Jorgan disposition to drive the SFZ  
implementation in linuxsampler

I propose the following as the initial effort I could undertake:

         separate .sfz files for each stop, implementing  a single loop,  
single release, and options for swell                 control (initially  
just volume, but likely a filter in future)

         At least one SFZ file will be completely documented with comments

         One .lscp file loading the intruments in linuxsampler, creating  
two midi ports, a jack audio output, and assigning midi channels

         modified Jorgan disposition file redirecting from fluidsynth to  
generic sound sources, one for the                 manual and one for  
the pedal

The wav files can be extracted from the grandorgue download  of this  
organ and placed in the proper directory structure by those who want to  
try this out.   A readme file would provide directions and a graphical  
directory structure and I would test the result under linux, but not  
under windows.

comments?


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Graham Goode
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
VPOs with jOrgan, LinuxSampler, Fluidsynth, SFZ, GrandOrgue, NI Kontakt, and Hauptwerk
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Re: SFZ test case proposal

erikds
In reply to this post by David Gritter
A very good start.
Looking forward to check is out.

All the best.

Erik.
------------------------------------------------

David Gritter wrote:

> I propose the following as a test case for the SFZ test case
>
> Convert the GrandOrgue version of the Burea Choir organ:
>     Its creative commons license will allow us to do this
>     It incorporates multiple releases, so the release wav files are
> already separate
>     It include a reed with a noticeable release transient
>     There is already a jorgan version using fluidsynth so
>             We can make side by side quality comparisons
>             We can modify the Jorgan disposition to drive the SFZ
> implementation in linuxsampler
>
> I propose the following as the initial effort I could undertake:
>
>         separate .sfz files for each stop, implementing  a single
> loop, single release, and options for swell control (initially just
> volume, but likely a filter in future)
>
>         At least one SFZ file will be completely documented with comments
>
>         One .lscp file loading the intruments in linuxsampler,
> creating two midi ports, a jack audio output, and assigning midi channels
>
>         modified Jorgan disposition file redirecting from fluidsynth
> to generic sound sources, one for the manual and one for the pedal
>
> The wav files can be extracted from the grandorgue download  of this
> organ and placed in the proper directory structure by those who want
> to try this out.   A readme file would provide directions and a
> graphical directory structure and I would test the result under linux,
> but not under windows.
>
> comments?
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> jOrgan-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user
>


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Re: SFZ test case proposal

tbeck
David,

This is exactly what I was hoping for. Thank you.

Tom

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:21 AM, Erik De Schrijver <[hidden email]> wrote:
A very good start.
Looking forward to check is out.

All the best.

Erik.
------------------------------------------------


David Gritter wrote:
I propose the following as a test case for the SFZ test case

Convert the GrandOrgue version of the Burea Choir organ:
    Its creative commons license will allow us to do this
    It incorporates multiple releases, so the release wav files are already separate
    It include a reed with a noticeable release transient
    There is already a jorgan version using fluidsynth so
            We can make side by side quality comparisons
            We can modify the Jorgan disposition to drive the SFZ implementation in linuxsampler

I propose the following as the initial effort I could undertake:

        separate .sfz files for each stop, implementing  a single loop, single release, and options for swell control (initially just volume, but likely a filter in future)

        At least one SFZ file will be completely documented with comments

        One .lscp file loading the intruments in linuxsampler, creating two midi ports, a jack audio output, and assigning midi channels

        modified Jorgan disposition file redirecting from fluidsynth to generic sound sources, one for the manual and one for the pedal

The wav files can be extracted from the grandorgue download  of this organ and placed in the proper directory structure by those who want to try this out.   A readme file would provide directions and a graphical directory structure and I would test the result under linux, but not under windows.

comments?


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Re: SFZ test case proposal

Graham Wykes
Can  I suggest an additional side branch to this testing? Take a known good soundfont and convert it to SFZ format using sfZed  (http://audio.clockbeat.com/sfZed.html) and compare the results. 

It may also be enlightening to see the sfz opcodes generated.  (For those here that haven't investigated SFZ, it consists of the .wav sample file(s) and a text file that describes all the parameters.  The text file can be read in a text editor and the sample can be examined in audacity.)

Cheers
Graham

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:08 PM, Thomas Beck <[hidden email]> wrote:
David,

This is exactly what I was hoping for. Thank you.

Tom

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:21 AM, Erik De Schrijver <[hidden email]> wrote:
A very good start.
Looking forward to check is out.

All the best.

Erik.
------------------------------------------------


David Gritter wrote:
I propose the following as a test case for the SFZ test case

Convert the GrandOrgue version of the Burea Choir organ:
    Its creative commons license will allow us to do this
    It incorporates multiple releases, so the release wav files are already separate
    It include a reed with a noticeable release transient
    There is already a jorgan version using fluidsynth so
            We can make side by side quality comparisons
            We can modify the Jorgan disposition to drive the SFZ implementation in linuxsampler

I propose the following as the initial effort I could undertake:

        separate .sfz files for each stop, implementing  a single loop, single release, and options for swell control (initially just volume, but likely a filter in future)

        At least one SFZ file will be completely documented with comments

        One .lscp file loading the intruments in linuxsampler, creating two midi ports, a jack audio output, and assigning midi channels

        modified Jorgan disposition file redirecting from fluidsynth to generic sound sources, one for the manual and one for the pedal

The wav files can be extracted from the grandorgue download  of this organ and placed in the proper directory structure by those who want to try this out.   A readme file would provide directions and a graphical directory structure and I would test the result under linux, but not under windows.

comments?


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