Fw: SFZ Sample Size vis-a-vis SF2

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Fw: SFZ Sample Size vis-a-vis SF2

jbeach2646
At 252MB, it is a rather hefty download, so I did not, but it does indicate that I must have found something which, although there was a charge for the full version of the instruments which included both a Hammond Organ and an electric organ, must have been heavily edited as demos, “lite” versions.   If the formats are simply detailed instructions on how to make or articulate
a sound from the fundamental, harmonic structure of the sound as it is contained in the cycles of a wave file, each, different time those instructions are given, the sound is produced in the exact same way, using different electricity in time.  I think I have exhausted this explanation to the point where the concept of perceptible variation in the desired quality of “motion” of the sounds of the organ is the issue which can not be resolved by the medium used to do so.   In linguist’s terms, Fluidsynth is the translator, and something is “getting lost in the translation.”
Actually, I don’t believe this is true.  If the instructions are complete and the software synth has the ability to implement the instructions, it can only be that the content of the wave file, as
a timber medium, put through DSP and DAC,  being played through amplifiers and speakers, differs significantly from the physical model of the pipe of the pipe organ being blown by wind.
 
I think the solution to the dissatisfaction of some is to go to a different program.  Artisan Organs might have sound engines which would satisfy folks who are discontent with Fluidsynth sound.  They do give a description of their sound engine, but they do not give it a name or details, other than to say that it is capable of reproducing the highest quality organ sounds, up to
7000 notes simultaneously on 8 channels.  The 2-manual Classical organ sound engine is about $1400 and this does not include the interface (Micro Midi retrofit, if necessary), though it does include ranks.   They do use jOrgan, but I could not determine from the website, whether the sounds (real pipes—digital ranks, of course) are processed by some “Generic Sound” output through jOrgan and what that as a “sound engine” is.
Does anyone on the forum know?
 
 
John Beach
 
 
 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] SFZ Sample Size vis-a-vis SF2
 

We need to be very careful distinguishing between the SFZ language, the associated sampler engines that use it, and the sample files that are used to create an instrument.   The wave files used can be as simple, or as complex and long as the instrument designer desires.  Therefore your example .wav files represent the choice made by the instrument designer, not a limitation of SFZ sampler engines, or the language.   You would probable gain greater insight into this small instrument by opening the .sfz file in a text editor to see what the designer did with his single cycle wave files.  Did he, for example, pass the oboe sample through a highly resonant filter to simulate the formant that would create a better oboe sound?  did he introduce random variations in playback of the wav?.  From my brief look at the SFZ language I have concluded the following:

SFZ will use the loop information contained in the .wav smpl chunck to create as long a loop as we might want.  The loop startpoint and endpoint can also be specified in the .sfz file.  If using the loop points in the .wav file, only the first loop will be used.
SFZ will trigger a separate release sample (needs to be an independent .wav file) when the midi note off is received.  global attack and release times will need to be properly specified in the .sfz file for this to work properly in organ simulations.

multiple releases are normally used in organ simulations to sound either the pipe turn off transient and/or the reverberation tail of the organ's environment.  thus if the release is triggered during a stacatto note when the pipe attack transient is not complete, a different release is needed.  I have not yet found how to accomplish this in SFZ commands, since the release chosen needs to be dependent on the time the main wav file has been triggered.   Alternatively GrandOrgue aFppears to offer the option of scaling the release amplitude as a function of the main file amplitude when it is stopped,  I don't see a way to do this in SFZ either.  Any help in these two areas would be appreciated.  Also, the SFZ language appears to have some sort of sequencing mechanism that will allow multiple loops to be implemented, but this also needs more study.

for a more sophisticated .sfz implementation, you might want to check out
http://www.drealm.info/sfz/DSmolken/    for a double base .sfz implementation with included .wav files

On 06/21/2017 02:08 PM, John Beach wrote:
My curiosity got the best of me and I found a website of a person who has developed several instruments in the SFZ format.  I download a lite version of an electric organ.  The samples folder
contains full octave samples for about 5 different stops.  I was curious and opened one of the samples in Audacity.  What I discovered was something I have known, but not used, for many
years.  The actual samples for all the instruments use only one cycle of any sound (stop voice).  You will, literally, hear nothing more than a blip when you play them.  However, instrument
(stop or voice) definition is contained in one complete cycle of a wave file.  So, they are extremely minute, literally, only .001 second and their size is in the 40-50 range.  When I first started making soundfonts in 1998, the limitation on processing speeds (75Mhz was common with 8 MB RAM), and memory led me to adopt this type of wave file editing.  My soundfonts were small
in kilobyte sizes, even though they had over 100 presets.   The beauty of SF2 is that it allows for the creation of multiple footages of instruments using one sample.   The instrument timber
is in the sample.  What I noticed with the Oboe sample of the instrument in the SFZ format which I downloaded  was that it sounded like a flute rather than an Oboe when I made an instrument of it in Polyphone.    I am not faulting the SFZ format.  However, I took an Oboe wave file and edited it to one cycle and made the exact same instrument in Polyphone.  Mine sounds like an Oboe.
 
 
One cycle samples are easy to edit and they work well in Polyphone.  What I am curious about is this.  Since the definition of a particular timber is contained in one cycle of a recording of that
instrument, why is there the perception that different frequencies or pitches of an instrument  change the  timber quality of that instrument?  This is a denial of the very concept of definition and I am trying to understand why, as this may relate to the factor of scaling in pipe ranks to, purportedly, maintain subtle aspects of timbre, there is a need to sample at different pitches when, seemingly, 16Hz and 16,000Hz, although different frequencies, may be applied to the same timber.  Its definition will be less identifiable at either 16Hz or 16,000Hz than it will be at 256Hz where its timber should be accurately identifiable.  
 
I am just a bit irate because I was criticized years ago for thinking that I could use a minute fraction of a wave file to define an instrument or organ stop.  Now, the pervasive attitude is
that SFZ is better and, yet, SFZ uses a miniscule fraction of recorded or generated sound to define a note of an instrument. 
 
John Beach


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Re: Fw: SFZ Sample Size vis-a-vis SF2

John Reimer
Administrator

JohnB,

You are still doing it! I am posting this as one of the Adminstrators. I am honestly surprised that no-one else has complained about this apart from me. I do not have knowledge of the workings of the mailing list, and I never use it, although I do receive the digests. As a test, when replying to an existing thread, will you please click on "Reply" and not on "Forward". I don't know if this is the solution, but I suspect that it is. If this is not the answer, will someone in the know please tell JohnB and the rest of us what the answer is!

John Reimer
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Re: Fw: Forum/user's list etiquette

jbeach2646
John R., the reason I hit "forward" as contrasted with "reply to sender" or
"all," is because the specific content (the body of the email)  of the
original post is contained in a "forward," with the subject header of the
thread,  whereas, it is not contained in the "reply to sender," or "all" as
you can see.   I understand how, if you get the digests, this can be a
confusing issue entailing the reading of stuff in which you have no
interest.  I changed the subject header for purposes of the topic.

Given all the aspects related to jOrgan which are currently topics of
discussion under consideration, it is difficult to know who, besides the
return addressee, may be interested in the topic.
However, I do try to reply to individuals, by name, and keep comments or
contributions to the discussion related in a given thread.

I do try to find how content of a posting relates to the subject header.
Sometimes, the relationship is a bit obtuse, but there is, frequently, a
discernible connection.

John B.



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Re: Fw: Forum/user's list etiquette

John Reimer
Administrator
JohnB,

It is commendable that you want to avoid confusing people who use the mailing list, but the effect on the Forum is to cause untidiness and perhaps also confusion there.  I would imagine (I don't really know) that the people who use the Forum are more numerous than those using the mailing list.

Is there any good reason why you cannot use the Forum when you want to reply to a post?

John Reimer
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Re: Fw: Forum/user's list etiquette

jbeach2646
John, it is my understanding that postings on this mailing list are posted
to nabble.com, the forum.  I was unaware that postings to the forum were any
different from postings to this
mailing list.

Sorry, perhaps, I made preferences several years ago which I had simply
forgotten about.

John B.



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Re: Fw: Forum/user's list etiquette

jbeach2646
In reply to this post by John Reimer
John,  I rarely go to the forum online.  Everything to which I post a
comment comes through the mailing list, the address on the To...line above
and is, in all likelihood, related to
what a jOrgan user posted in the content of the "forwarded" reply.  I do
this for the express purpose of avoiding confusion.  I try to remember to
delete the bottom portions if a thread
becomes very long with multiple users having posted.  Otherwise, the waste
is obvious.


John B.



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Re: Fw: SFZ Sample Size vis-a-vis SF2

RoyR
In reply to this post by John Reimer
Hi, Johns (Both!)

                           I always use the mailing list, rarely visit the site, and reply by using the Reply button, as I'm doing now. Do you get the problem with my posts? If not, maybe that answers your question!

   



      Have fun,

            Roy.


On 22 June 2017 at 02:56, John Reimer <[hidden email]> wrote:

JohnB,

You are still doing it! I am posting this as one of the Adminstrators. I am
honestly surprised that no-one else has complained about this apart from me.
I do not have knowledge of the workings of the mailing list, and I never use
it, although I do receive the digests. As a test, when replying to an
existing thread, will you please click on "Reply" and not on "Forward". I
don't know if this is the solution, but I suspect that it is. If this is not
the answer, will someone in the know please tell JohnB and the rest of us
what the answer is!

John Reimer



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Re: Fw: SFZ Sample Size vis-a-vis SF2

John Reimer
Administrator
RoyR wrote
I always use the mailing list, rarely visit the
site, and reply by using the Reply button, as I'm doing now. Do you get the
problem with my posts? If not, maybe that answers your question!
Roy,

Thank you. It seems that JohnB is now also using the Reply in this thread, otherwise we would have the problem recurring. This doesn't solve his issue of not wanting to confuse list users with the content of the Subject line. Can you suggest what he can do about that?

John Reimer
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Re: Fw: SFZ Sample Size vis-a-vis SF2

RoyR
Hi, John,

              No, I don't really know the answer to that one, I can't change the title of a thread in gmail, only start a new one. I sometimes put O/T at the start just to warn people but more often forget!

    

   


      Have fun,

            Roy.


On 22 June 2017 at 11:50, John Reimer <[hidden email]> wrote:
RoyR wrote
> I always use the mailing list, rarely visit the
> site, and reply by using the Reply button, as I'm doing now. Do you get
> the
> problem with my posts? If not, maybe that answers your question!

Roy,

Thank you. It seems that JohnB is now also using the Reply in this thread,
otherwise we would have the problem recurring. This doesn't solve his issue
of not wanting to confuse list users with the content of the Subject line.
Can you suggest what he can do about that?

John Reimer




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Re: User's List and jOrgan Forum (nabble.com)

jbeach2646
In reply to this post by RoyR
Interestingly, I noticed after sending a “reply” to John R., that the nabble.com website was on my browser and my post to John was already there.  I did not find the reply in the “sent items” of my email (Live Mail 2012) program.  Now, I understand that the emails sent back and forth on the jOrgan User’s List do get posted to the forum, according to the thread in the subject line.
 
Perhaps, this is what needs to be clarified, the fact that emails are posted according to the subject line thread.  As you can see, I changed the subject from “Fw: SFZ Sample Size vis-a-vis SF2”
which was a thread I started and which both you, John and Roy, continued to use despite the total irrelevance of the subject of my posting habits. 
 
I think I have the knack of it now.
 
John Beach

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