FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing and acoustical illusion.

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FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing and acoustical illusion.

filippo racioppi

I wish to thank  Sven Maier for his JOrgan and  Bernd Casper, Paul Stratman, Panos  and all the other  for their beautiful organ disposition, that I enjoy to play.
Someone is interested on my FROrgel project?


The FROrgel project is intended for organ players that need realism when playing baroque music on midi virtual organs. FROrgel improves realism by using an alghorithm that analyzes, in real time, the midi organ polyphony, and sends separate notes to distinct synthesizer/audio/speaker chains.

The process is intended to realize a true distinct physical emission of sound, like in the pipe organs, and to reach the deep  acustical illusion of playing a true organ.

Due of the great number of physical generators involved in pipe organs (n_generators = stop x key), the  alghorithm is involved in drastically simplifying and reducing the total number of generators (audio channells and speakers) by taking account of the original physical structure of the organ pipe, the hearing-brain processes related to the sensitivity at sound space and time, and the harmony-cunterpoint rules applied in baroque music.

Filippo Racioppi.

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R: FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing andacoustical illusion.

marco rizzo

Very interesting indeed!

 

May you supply us with more details about how do you think to achieve that (software involved, soundcards, number of audio channels, etc)?

 

Kind regards

 

PS: what FROrgel stands for?

 

Marco Rizzo


Da: filippo racioppi [mailto:[hidden email]]
Inviato: giovedì 13 marzo 2014 14:46
A: [hidden email]
Oggetto: [jOrgan-sound] FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing andacoustical illusion.

 


I wish to thank  Sven Maier for his JOrgan and  Bernd Casper, Paul Stratman, Panos  and all the other  for their beautiful organ disposition, that I enjoy to play.
Someone is interested on my FROrgel project?


The FROrgel project is intended for organ players that need realism when playing baroque music on midi virtual organs. FROrgel improves realism by using an alghorithm that analyzes, in real time, the midi organ polyphony, and sends separate notes to distinct synthesizer/audio/speaker chains.

The process is intended to realize a true distinct physical emission of sound, like in the pipe organs, and to reach the deep  acustical illusion of playing a true organ.

Due of the great number of physical generators involved in pipe organs (n_generators = stop x key), the  alghorithm is involved in drastically simplifying and reducing the total number of generators (audio channells and speakers) by taking account of the original physical structure of the organ pipe, the hearing-brain processes related to the sensitivity at sound space and time, and the harmony-cunterpoint rules applied in baroque music.

Filippo Racioppi.


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Re: R: FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing andacoustical illusion.

filippo racioppi
Thanks for the interest.
Excuse me for my bad english.

Backgrounds:

Sven's Jorgan is  fundamental for my studies. 

I'm interested on music, acoustical illusions, brain-earing processes.
My experience is based on some trip with the Accademia Organistica Pinerolese (http://www.accademiaorganisticapinerolese.org/) in France-Embrun, and  nord Germany - Lubeck, and Freiberg Sachsen zone and so on- to visit the Schnitger and Silbermann organs.

Playing on those organs and the monumental  Dell'Orto Lanzini copy of Schitger organ in Pinerolo-Italy   (http://www.dellortoelanzini.it/induce me to "materialize" an old persistent idea that i have to produce a different instrument that make no use of stereophony and reverberation as main realism factors. This decision is after almost two years testing Jorgan+convolution reverb (and two trip to the St.Petri Kirke in Freiberg).
At the moment I'm try to emulate the Nassau Silbermann Organ environment, that is pratically without any reverb.



FROrgel is under development on Linux Debian, and consists on  i c language program that implements the complex alghorithm.

Hardware: My test studio is based on a two manuals+pedalboard midi organ,
two bi-amplified studio monitors , two hi - power extended bass speakers enclosures for the bass-towers.


Software:Jorgan,fluidsynth,jackd,aconnect,Fluidsynth and alsasound c library,
a solid baroque sf2 monofonic file  
FROrgel can handle up to 12 audio chains.
plus of cours:
FROrgel core (the alghorithm)

(FRorgel is for Filippo Racioppi Orgel)

ciao




2014-03-13 15:05 GMT+01:00 Marco Rizzo <[hidden email]>:

Very interesting indeed!

 

May you supply us with more details about how do you think to achieve that (software involved, soundcards, number of audio channels, etc)?

 

Kind regards

 

PS: what FROrgel stands for?

 

Marco Rizzo


Da: filippo racioppi [mailto:[hidden email]]
Inviato: giovedì 13 marzo 2014 14:46
A: [hidden email]
Oggetto: [jOrgan-sound] FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing andacoustical illusion.

 


I wish to thank  Sven Maier for his JOrgan and  Bernd Casper, Paul Stratman, Panos  and all the other  for their beautiful organ disposition, that I enjoy to play.
Someone is interested on my FROrgel project?


The FROrgel project is intended for organ players that need realism when playing baroque music on midi virtual organs. FROrgel improves realism by using an alghorithm that analyzes, in real time, the midi organ polyphony, and sends separate notes to distinct synthesizer/audio/speaker chains.

The process is intended to realize a true distinct physical emission of sound, like in the pipe organs, and to reach the deep  acustical illusion of playing a true organ.

Due of the great number of physical generators involved in pipe organs (n_generators = stop x key), the  alghorithm is involved in drastically simplifying and reducing the total number of generators (audio channells and speakers) by taking account of the original physical structure of the organ pipe, the hearing-brain processes related to the sensitivity at sound space and time, and the harmony-cunterpoint rules applied in baroque music.

Filippo Racioppi.


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Re: FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing and acoustical illusion.

John Reimer
Administrator
In reply to this post by filippo racioppi
filippo racioppi wrote
Someone is interested on my FROrgel project?
Filippo,

I am sure that many of us in the jOrgan community are interested in what you are doing. We look forward to learning more details, and of course to hearing recordings of what you are achieving.

It is fascinating that you are using jOrgan to explore what seems to be a new and original approach.

Best wishes for your project!

John Reimer
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Re: FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing and acoustical illusion.

filippo racioppi
John
thanks for the interest.
I'm starting to write a simple abstract about my work. I'll post it in a few days.
ciao
Filippo.



2014-03-14 6:11 GMT+01:00 John Reimer <[hidden email]>:
filippo racioppi wrote
> Someone is interested on my FROrgel project?

Filippo,

I am sure that many of us in the jOrgan community are interested in what you
are doing. We look forward to learning more details, and of course to
hearing recordings of what you are achieving.

It is fascinating that you are using jOrgan to explore what seems to be a
new and original approach.

Best wishes for your project!

John Reimer



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Re: FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing and acoustical illusion.

BCA
Administrator
Hi Filippo,

I only can second John's comment. A very interesting project.
I'm looking forward to read your abstract.

So long
Bernd Casper

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Re: FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing and acoustical illusion.

mashaffer
In reply to this post by filippo racioppi
I look forward to learning more. Is it an add on that is used in conjunction with JO or a stand alone VPO? I don't know if my computer would have the power needed. I am using old Macbook pro with 2G RAM running Ubuntu Studio flavor of Linux.

mike
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Re: FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing and acoustical illusion.

filippo racioppi
In reply to this post by BCA
Thanks Bernd for your interest.

in this moment i'm playing your little silbermann disposition.

Filippo-



2014-03-15 4:11 GMT+01:00 BCA <[hidden email]>:
Hi Filippo,

I only can second John's comment. A very interesting project.
I'm looking forward to read your abstract.

So long
Bernd Casper

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Re: FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing and acoustical illusion.

filippo racioppi
In reply to this post by mashaffer
Hi Mike,

FRorgel is an add  to a  JO. Need some software to works + the FROrgel.exe c program (debian linux based).
JO act as a relay running a simple disposition,  and send midi event to a generic-sound element.
the midi out of sound-element is connected to FRorgel input that dismount polyphony and send midi event to  a lot of distinct fluidsynths.that performs rendering of the same SF2 file.


I'hope next days to post a  minimal design of the whole project.

filippo.



2014-03-15 15:40 GMT+01:00 mashaffer <[hidden email]>:
I look forward to learning more. Is it an add on that is used in conjunction
with JO or a stand alone VPO? I don't know if my computer would have the
power needed. I am using old Macbook pro with 2G RAM running Ubuntu Studio
flavor of Linux.

mike



--
View this message in context: http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/FROrgel-project-organ-sound-enhancing-and-acoustical-illusion-tp4660568p4660578.html
Sent from the jOrgan - Sound mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing and acoustical illusion.

filippo racioppi
for those interested on i prepared:

“FROrgel true organ”, virtual organ sound enhancing and acoustical illusion.

Filippo Racioppi

draft edition 24 march .2013 (official issue will be on 31.3.2014)


Abstract


The FROrgel true-organ project is intended for organ players that need realism when playing baroque music on midi virtual organs. FROrgel improves realism by mean an alghorithm that analyzes in real time the midi organ polyphony, dismount it and sends separate notes to distinct synthesizer/audio/speaker chains.


The process is intended to realize a true distinct physical emission of sound, like in the pipe organs, and to reach the acustical illusion of playing a true organ.


Due of the great number of physical generators involved in pipe organs (n_generators = stop x key), the FROrgel's  alghorithm is involved in drastically simplifying and reducing the total number of generators ( and the audio channels and speakers chains ) by taking account of the original physical structure of the organ pipe, the hearing-brain processes related to the sensitivity to detect sound point of emission vs. time, and the harmony-cunterpoint rules envolved in baroque music.


As a result of real-time simplification task, the original n_generators  are reduced to a few items that  fits  a multichannel audio sound system with identical amplifiers/speakers, up to 10, for each FROrgel algorithm's instance.



Experimental platform


FRorgel uses a  multichannel audio board, 8 channel, which outputs can be connected to identical  audio chains , two  up to six for manuals,  with speakers frequency band starting from 63 Hz in order to reproduce 8' pipe,  and  a two channel speaker system with speakers frequency band starting from 31 Hz  needed to reproduce 16' ranks  for pedal bass nordic baroque organ towers. At present no experiences are token for reproducing 32' ranks, that need 15Hz minimal frequency sound emission. Intrinsec FROrgel's concept refuses monophonic subwoofer speakers.


True organ FROrgel is based on  Unix/Linux hardware platforms, (Debian distribution at the moment 2014) and comes as a binary command line program “FRO.exe” accepting the midi output of a virtual organ, like the Sven Meier's JOrgan, FROrgel own  an embedded software mechanism that instances and controls multiple sound-font synthesizer, (fluidsynth).

Sound-font files used by FROrgel true organ are monofonic and no-panning.  It is possible to instance FROrgel itself one or more times, in order to control many group of identical audio chains. FRO.exe binary requires fluidsynth, jackd, aconnect to be installed.


FRO.exe use syntax:

./FRO.exe npositionvalue sf2file [optionaljackname] [ > NULL for non verbose output ]

In order to interrupt FRO.exe user can issue a  CNTR-C to the FRO.exe terminal window, or emit a  killall FRO.exe. Internal software FRO.exe mechanisms get down all the instanced fluidsynts.


The following example shows the use of True organ FROrgel in conjunction with a JOrgan disposition of Hauptwerke Brustwerke and Pedal in which Jorgan output consists on  two generic-sound elements as midi output. A first  generic-sound midi  output is devoted for Hauptwerke Brustwerke stops while

a second generic-sound midi  output is devoted for Pedalbord ranks:


home/j/FROrgel>./FRO.exe 5 SilbermannOrgel.sf2 HauptwerkeBrustwerke  

home/j/FROrgel>./FRO.exe 2 SilbermannOrgel.sf2 Pedalboard


In the above-mentioned case seven output audio channels sound becames available: five for the manuals and two for the pedal bass towers.

A minimal configuration of 2 generators/channels for manuals and 2 for pedalboard is needed for basic applications with a  minimal acustical illusion, that is at the moment (2014/3) the operating configuration, in this case FROrgel is istanced two times: the first one for the HauptwerkBrustwerk 2 generators/audio chain, the second one for the Pedal board 2 generator/audio chain.  Both headphones,  stereophonic recording and hi-fi 2 channels systems can not render the true-organ FROrgel illusion at all. A Headphone and 2 channels FROrgel system was used only in a first implementation stages to determine faults of the algorithm envolved by FROrgel.




Properties and test planning.


FROrgel own adaptive properties to hardware that take account of the following concepts:


 -Routing keys to distinct audio channels and speakers, while different stops on same key always are routed to same generator.

This is the main feature. This process  allows pure sound emission, and a strong reduction of ear-brain mechanisms in pipe position detection, and drastically reduce  intermodulation distortion in the audio chains that otherwise occurs in traditional electronic organs, when spatiality goals are mainly induced by panning/delay line techniques on stereo  audio channels  and distinct fundamental frequency reaches the same audio channel.

In a true pipe organ intermodulation processes never happens because the melange/mixing of mechanical waves from distant notes occours in air, that is quite a linear medium if compared with a speaker, both hi-fi,  when attempt to reproduce together two or more sounds with fundamental frequencies.


 -Performing a deep  illusion of original organ spatiality.

Keys are routed on a default routes/position  table based to the original organ geometry,  if the route is busy  keys are routed to a free chain  or to the less engaged chain, using pseudo-random methods to induce illusion, in those cases organ geometry is lost, but performer don't care at all because listener's memory of source position decreases on elapsed time and on increasing the number of notes in polyphony, probably because ear-brain are involved in other decisional/identification processes.


A routing output table is available from FROrgel in real time or can be stored to a log file. It shows how FROrgel acts during a normal performance and when the audio chains resources became unavailable due to a polyphony voices number is greater than the number of audio chains.


A route analisys is necessary in order to  adapt  FROrgel Algorithm to induce a sufficient illusion using low degree  resources (miniumun audio chains).


In first stages tests on baroque polyphony we analyze  the above mentioned routing table of basso continuo 4 parts musical scripture using  2 to 6 channels. Also routing of late baroque orchestral midi file (J.S.Bach Brandenburg concerts up to 8 and more voices) will be performed.


Then we’ll perform subjective empiric comparison  between FROrgel with enhanced status of the art preesistent virtual organ multichannel disposition (like the Bernrd Casper et. al ) and with historical instruments and their "philological" copies, as dell'Orto Lanzini 2011 in Pinerolo-Turin-Italy  (monumental Schitger reconstruction planned by the organologist Prof. Silvio Sorrentino),   and the small Pinchi organ 1995 (Valdesian temple of Turin-Italy).


Performances of Bach's organ chorales on JOrgan disposition of Bernrd Casper was also token  (2013) at the Accademia Organistica Pinerolese by Prof. Walter Gatti, and sound-enginerized at studio by Filippo Racioppi in order analyze evolute sound rendering with  experts of baroque music. Link of  those prof. Gatti’s peformance are available on request.


(The True organ FROrgel name is for Filippo Racioppi orgel, by the name of his creator and author. At the moment  24 march 2014 True organ FROrgel and his proprierties and alghorithm source code and binary program are copyright by the author.)





2014-03-15 16:08 GMT+01:00 filippo racioppi <[hidden email]>:
Hi Mike,

FRorgel is an add  to a  JO. Need some software to works + the FROrgel.exe c program (debian linux based).
JO act as a relay running a simple disposition,  and send midi event to a generic-sound element.
the midi out of sound-element is connected to FRorgel input that dismount polyphony and send midi event to  a lot of distinct fluidsynths.that performs rendering of the same SF2 file.


I'hope next days to post a  minimal design of the whole project.

filippo.



2014-03-15 15:40 GMT+01:00 mashaffer <[hidden email]>:
I look forward to learning more. Is it an add on that is used in conjunction
with JO or a stand alone VPO? I don't know if my computer would have the
power needed. I am using old Macbook pro with 2G RAM running Ubuntu Studio
flavor of Linux.

mike



--
View this message in context: http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/FROrgel-project-organ-sound-enhancing-and-acoustical-illusion-tp4660568p4660578.html
Sent from the jOrgan - Sound mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
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Re: FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing and acoustical illusion.

filippo racioppi
In reply to this post by filippo racioppi
For those interested on, I prepared the abstract on:

FROrgel true organ”, virtual organ sound enhancing and acoustical illusion.

Filippo Racioppi draft edition 24 march .2013 (official issue will be on 31.3.2014)

Abstract

The FROrgel true-organ project is intended for organ players that need realism when playing baroque music on midi virtual organs. FROrgel improves realism by mean an alghorithm that analyzes in real time the midi organ polyphony, dismount it and sends separate notes to distinct synthesizer/audio/speaker chains.

The process is intended to realize a true distinct physical emission of sound, like in the pipe organs, and to reach the acustical illusion of playing a true organ.

Due of the great number of physical generators involved in pipe organs (n_generators = stop x key), the FROrgel's  alghorithm is involved in drastically simplifying and reducing the total number of generators ( and the audio channels and speakers chains ) by taking account of the original physical structure of the organ pipe, the hearing-brain processes related to the sensitivity to detect sound point of emission vs. time, and the harmony-cunterpoint rules envolved in baroque music.

As a result of real-time simplification task, the original n_generators  are reduced to a few items that  fits  a multichannel audio sound system with identical amplifiers/speakers, up to 10, for each FROrgel algorithm's instance.


Experimental platform

FRorgel uses a  multichannel audio board, 8 channel, which outputs can be connected to identical  audio chains , two  up to six for manuals,  with speakers frequency band starting from 63 Hz in order to reproduce 8' pipe,  and  a two channel speaker system with speakers frequency band starting from 31 Hz  needed to reproduce 16' ranks  for pedal bass nordic baroque organ towers. At present no experiences are token for reproducing 32' ranks, that need 15Hz minimal frequency sound emission. Intrinsec FROrgel's concept refuses monophonic subwoofer speakers.

True organ FROrgel is based on  Unix/Linux hardware platforms, (Debian distribution at the moment 2014) and comes as a binary command line program “FRO.exe” accepting the midi output of a virtual organ, like the Sven Meier's JOrgan, FROrgel own  an embedded software mechanism that instances and controls multiple sound-font synthesizer, (fluidsynth).

Sound-font files used by FROrgel true organ are monofonic and no-panning.  It is possible to instance FROrgel itself one or more times, in order to control many group of identical audio chains. FRO.exe binary requires fluidsynth, jackd, aconnect to be installed.

FRO.exe use syntax:

./FRO.exe npositionvalue sf2file [optionaljackname] [ > NULL for non verbose output ]

In order to interrupt FRO.exe user can issue a  CNTR-C to the FRO.exe terminal window, or emit a  killall FRO.exe. Internal software FRO.exe mechanisms get down all the instanced fluidsynts.

The following example shows the use of True organ FROrgel in conjunction with a JOrgan disposition of Hauptwerke Brustwerke and Pedal in which Jorgan output consists on  two generic-sound elements as midi output. A first  generic-sound midi  output is devoted for Hauptwerke Brustwerke stops while

a second generic-sound midi  output is devoted for Pedalbord ranks:

home/j/FROrgel>./FRO.exe 5 SilbermannOrgel.sf2 HauptwerkeBrustwerke  

home/j/FROrgel>./FRO.exe 2 SilbermannOrgel.sf2 Pedalboard

In the above-mentioned case seven output audio channels sound becames available: five for the manuals and two for the pedal bass towers.

A minimal configuration of 2 generators/channels for manuals and 2 for pedalboard is needed for basic applications with a  minimal acustical illusion, that is at the moment (2014/3) the operating configuration, in this case FROrgel is istanced two times: the first one for the HauptwerkBrustwerk 2 generators/audio chain, the second one for the Pedal board 2 generator/audio chain.  Both headphones,  stereophonic recording and hi-fi 2 channels systems can not render the true-organ FROrgel illusion at all. A Headphone and 2 channels FROrgel system was used only in a first implementation stages to determine faults of the algorithm envolved by FROrgel.



Properties and tests planning

FROrgel own adaptive properties to hardware that take account of the following concepts:

 -Routing keys to distinct audio channels and speakers, while different stops on same key always are routed to same generator.

This is the main feature. This process  allows pure sound emission, and a strong reduction of ear-brain mechanisms in pipe position detection, and drastically reduce  intermodulation distortion in the audio chains that otherwise occurs in traditional electronic organs, when spatiality goals are mainly induced by panning/delay line techniques on stereo  audio channels  and distinct fundamental frequency reaches the same audio channel.

In a true pipe organ intermodulation processes never happens because the melange/mixing of mechanical waves from distant notes occours in air, that is quite a linear medium if compared with a speaker, both hi-fi,  when attempt to reproduce together two or more sounds with fundamental frequencies.

 -Performing a deep  illusion of original organ spatiality.

Keys are routed on a default routes/position  table based to the original organ geometry,  if the route is busy  keys are routed to a free chain  or to the less engaged chain, using pseudo-random methods to induce illusion, in those cases organ geometry is lost, but performer don't care at all because listener's memory of source position decreases on elapsed time and on increasing the number of notes in polyphony, probably because ear-brain are involved in other decisional/identification processes.

A routing output table is available from FROrgel in real time or can be stored to a log file. It shows how FROrgel acts during a normal performance and when the audio chains resources became unavailable due to a polyphony voices number is greater than the number of audio chains.

A route analisys is needed in order to  adapt  FROrgel Algorithm to induce a sufficient illusion using low degree  resources (miniumun audio chains).

In first stages tests on baroque polyphony, we'll analyze  the above mentioned routing table of basso continuo 4 parts musical scripture using  2 to 6 channels. Also routing of late baroque orchestral midi file (J.S.Bach Brandenburg concerts up to 8 and more voices) will be performed.

Then we’ll perform subjective empiric comparison  between FROrgel with enhanced status of the art preesistent virtual organ multichannel disposition (like the Bernrd Casper et. al ) and with historical instruments and their "philological" copies, as dell'Orto Lanzini 2011 in Pinerolo-Turin-Italy  (monumental Schitger reconstruction planned by the organologist Prof. Silvio Sorrentino),   and the small Pinchi organ 1995 (Valdesian temple of Turin-Italy).

Performances of Bach's organ chorales on JOrgan disposition of Bernrd Casper was also token  (2013) at the Accademia Organistica Pinerolese by Prof. Walter Gatti, and sound-enginerized at studio by Filippo Racioppi in order analyze evolute sound rendering with  experts of baroque music. Link of  those prof. Gatti’s peformance are available on request.

(The True organ FROrgel name is for Filippo Racioppi's orgel, by the name of his creator and author. At the moment  24 march 2014 True organ FROrgel and his concept and alghorithm source code and binary program are copyright by the author.)


Filippo
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Re: FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing and acoustical illusion.

John Reimer
Administrator
Filippo,

Congratulations on a great concept, which addresses, perhaps for the first time, the problems of true spatial separation of sounds, and the matter of intermodulation distortion. I await its development with great interest, although I wonder if I shall ever have enough expertise with Linux systems to make use of it personally. Is it possible that eventually it might be available for Windows systems?

I have a number of questions at this stage:

1. To what extent does the system increase latency in playing?
2. If a particular note is repeated in quick succession, is it kept in the one channel?
3. Is the system suitable only for "dry" samples, or can "wet" samples with significant release times also be used?

By the way, I don't see why a monophonic subwoofer amplifier/speaker could not be used for the very low pitches, if suitable separating (i.e. frequency-splitting) filters (LP and HP as required) are used, as long as the "crossover" frequency is low enough to direct to the subwoofer amplifier only pitches for which our human hearing does not detect directionality.

Best wishes,
John Reimer
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Re: FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing and acoustical illusion.

mashaffer
I notice you specifically mention Baroque. Is this system only applicable to Baroque music or instruments or is it generally useful for other styles and instruments?

mike
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Re: FROrgel project: organ sound enhancing and acoustical illusion.

filippo racioppi
At the moment my focus and efforts are  on  baroque style, and baroque organ geometry diverge from later organ, as an example romantic organs often loose the wood boxes that envelops groups of pipes, and bass-towers are in different locations.

Anyway In my opinion the concept of true-organ will be  applicable on other styles for organists wish to play or study on an instrument that produce sound in similar way to  pipe organ, while for recording, reverbered installations,  midi rendering and so on, at the moment i found the "BCA stereo spectacular" and some other unbeatable instruments.

filippo
     


2014-04-02 0:52 GMT+02:00 mashaffer <[hidden email]>:
I notice you specifically mention Baroque. Is this system only applicable to
Baroque music or instruments or is it generally useful for other styles and
instruments?

mike



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