Continuous sustain pedal

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Continuous sustain pedal

shivasage
Hello everyone. I'm a new user of jOrgan. I've managed to get everything
working with my setup vis a vis organs and harpsichords, however I can't
figure out how to get my Yamaha Clavinova's continuous (8 steps) sustain
pedal to work with a Bosendorfer 1890 soundfont that I downloaded. Although
jOrgan recognizes and responds to the continuous nature of the pedal, which
I can see because of the visual element I'm using for the filter, the actual
effect is only on/off.

The filter uses the following messages:

Intercept: equal 179, equal 64, get sustain
Engaging: set 176, set 64, set sustain 127 | mult value
Change: equal 176, equal 64, div 127 | get value

I'm at a loss as to what to try now. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!



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Re: Continuous sustain pedal

John Reimer
Administrator
shivasage wrote
> Hello everyone. I'm a new user of jOrgan.

Hi shivasage,

Welcome to the Mailing List and to jOrgan!

We'll have to see if anyone answers here. But this list is a bit quiet, and
you may do better to send your post to the jOrgan-User List. What is a
continuous (8 steps) sustain pedal? Can you please describe what it is
supposed to do?

John Reimer




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Re: Continuous sustain pedal

John Reimer
Administrator
In reply to this post by shivasage
shivasage wrote
> I can't
> figure out how to get my Yamaha Clavinova's continuous (8 steps) sustain
> pedal to work with a Bosendorfer 1890 soundfont that I downloaded.

shivasage,

I warn you that I know nothing about using jOrgan with pianos. However, the
problem may be in the soundfont. If you got this soundfont from Jacques
Levy's website, the Bosendorf soundfont is only 31 MB, and I compare it with
a Grand ("Acoustic"?) which has 132 MB. So perhaps the smaller soundfont
simply does not provide for this extra effect. Just a suggestion. Any chance
of trying it with the larger soundfont?

John Reimer




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Re: Continuous sustain pedal

shivasage
Hi John,

Thanks for your response. After some further tinkering, I believe I have
figured out why this won't work. Upon perusing  these notes
<https://jorgan.info/base/bm/jorgan_notes.pdf>   written by Bruce Miles, I
found that the "Sustain" MIDI continuous controller is not a sweep from
0-127, but rather only has two values: 0 for off, 127 for on. So, when my
Yamaha pedal sends values in between, jOrgan cannot respond to them. They
show up under the Problems tab as something like "cannot read value 24"
(which is the first non-zero value that my pedal sends).

Perhaps this could be a simple update for a future version of jOrgan?



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Re: Continuous sustain pedal

John Reimer
Administrator
shivasage wrote
> I
> found that the "Sustain" MIDI continuous controller is not a sweep from
> 0-127, but rather only has two values: 0 for off, 127 for on.

shivasage,

That is simply following the MIDI specifications (I looked it up). Any
values less that about 64 are OFF, and any above are ON. So digital pianos
which offer this effect do so apart from MIDI considerations. It would be
interesting to know how many do offer it. It would require a whole host of
alternative release samples, in a sample-based system. I would expect that
to cater for how hard the keys are played, but to include on top of that the
influence of the position of the damper pedal boggles the mind.

I am impressed that you found Bruce Miles' Notes. I think it's only a few
days since I put them into the jOrgan InfoBase.

John Reimer



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Re: Continuous sustain pedal

John Reimer
Administrator
In reply to this post by shivasage
shivasage,

You may find this old thread interesting:
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/Sustain-pedal-function-in-jOrgan-td3065647i20.html

John Reimer



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Re: Continuous sustain pedal

shivasage
Hi John,

You're right, it's standard MIDI protocol. Oh well! I'm happy with my organs
and harpsichords. Guess I'll have to start saving for a real fortepiano.

I saw that thread when I was looking for info. It made me realize I needed
to learn about the MIDI commands, which let me to Bruce Miles's notes.
Perfect timing!

Thanks again for taking the time to help.



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Re: Continuous sustain pedal

rpreid
I know just enough about jOrgan midi message handling to get confused, so I
apologize if this is not helpful.  

MIDI control change (CC) 64 is designated as sustain in the MIDI standard,
and sustain pedals for synths and older piano emulations often functioned as
on/off switches.  Thus the reference to "≤63 off, ≥64 on" in the
documentation.  However, while MIDI implementation can vary widely, the MIDI
hardware and software I have come across treat CC 64 as any other control
with 127 possible values.  I have confirmed that jOrgan does this, as did
you when you saw the visual element respond to the continuous messages.

From a jOrgan perspective, a sustain pedal is just an expression pedal that
returns to 0 when it is released.  The midi messages for both types pedals
would be the same.  Looking at the filter messages you shared, the Change
message looks correct.  However, in the engaging message, I'm not sure what
"set sustain" does.  You might try this:

Engaging: set 176, set 64, set value | mult volume 127

All of that said, while I'm confident jOrgan could be programmed for
continuous sustain, it is very possible your soundfont does not support it.
As John suggested the soundfont implementation could be quite complex.

I hope this helped a little.  If you have other questions or would like me
to take a look at your soundfont, I'd be happy to take a shot.

Ryan





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Re: Continuous sustain pedal

rpreid
Sorry, I didn't look close enough at the Engaging message I suggested.  I
think it should be this:

Engaging: set 176, set 19, set value | mult 127

Ryan



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Re: Continuous sustain pedal

shivasage
In reply to this post by rpreid
Hi Ryan,

Thanks for your response. I will try what you suggested, but I think you are correct in thinking the soundfont doesn't support it.

Regards,
Sasha

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:41 PM rpreid <[hidden email]> wrote:
I know just enough about jOrgan midi message handling to get confused, so I
apologize if this is not helpful. 

MIDI control change (CC) 64 is designated as sustain in the MIDI standard,
and sustain pedals for synths and older piano emulations often functioned as
on/off switches.  Thus the reference to "≤63 off, ≥64 on" in the
documentation.  However, while MIDI implementation can vary widely, the MIDI
hardware and software I have come across treat CC 64 as any other control
with 127 possible values.  I have confirmed that jOrgan does this, as did
you when you saw the visual element respond to the continuous messages.

From a jOrgan perspective, a sustain pedal is just an expression pedal that
returns to 0 when it is released.  The midi messages for both types pedals
would be the same.  Looking at the filter messages you shared, the Change
message looks correct.  However, in the engaging message, I'm not sure what
"set sustain" does.  You might try this:

Engaging: set 176, set 64, set value | mult volume 127

All of that said, while I'm confident jOrgan could be programmed for
continuous sustain, it is very possible your soundfont does not support it.
As John suggested the soundfont implementation could be quite complex.

I hope this helped a little.  If you have other questions or would like me
to take a look at your soundfont, I'd be happy to take a shot.

Ryan





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